From Struggle to Strength: A Sober Woman's Journey to Confident Living and Long-Term Recovery w/Caroline Beidler

Today on the Confident Sober Women podcast I speak with Caroline Beidler, MSW, author and recovery advocate. Caroline shares her transformative journey from addiction to long-term recovery, offering hope and practical insights for women seeking a life free from substance use.

Key topics include:
- The power of recovering out loud and normalizing an alcohol-free lifestyle
- How recovery communities provide grace and forgiveness
- The role of therapy in addressing substance use and trauma
- Implementing healthy boundaries for internal peace and joyful living
- Neurofeedback therapy as a treatment for anxiety and addiction

Caroline, founder of Circle of Chairs and author of "Downstairs Church" and "You Are Not Your Trauma," brings her expertise as a mental health provider and addiction recovery specialist to this engaging conversation. Learn how to stop worrying and start living confidently in sobriety.

Discover practical tools for:
- Building resilience in long-term recovery
- Healing family patterns and generational trauma
- Thriving in sobriety and embracing a new life

Whether you're a woman in recovery, seeking help for addiction, or looking to support loved ones, this episode offers valuable insights and strategies for a fulfilling, alcohol-free life.

Connect with Caroline:
- Website: https://www.carolinebeidler.com
- Instagram: @carolinebeidler_official
- Book: "You Are Not Your Trauma: Uproot Unhealthy Patterns, Heal the Family Tree" (Available on Amazon)

Join us as we explore the grit and grace of addiction recovery, and learn how to live boldly and confidently in long-term sobriety. Your journey to a transformed life starts here.

If you have 30 seconds can you please leave a rating and review wherever you get your podcasts so other women can find us as we continue to build our community of women who want to THRIVE in long-term recovery.

If you are interested in learning more about at-home neurofeedback I would love to share the program with you. It is an evidence-based form of therapy for anxiety, ADHD, insomnia, performance, and addiction recovery. I can share more here. 

Transcript

Well, Hey there, Caroline. Thank you so much for joining me today for the Confident Sober Women podcast. I'm so excited to have you here and share your story with my community and really dig into some amazing stuff. So I'm going to turn the mic over to you now, let you share a little bit more of that story.

And then we're going to talk.  

Oh, Shelby, thank you so much. It's so wonderful to be with you today. Well, I love, um, you know, being asked about my recovery story and I love to focus there because for me today, looking back, you know, on my years in active addiction and untreated mental health challenges and trauma symptoms and all of that place, I feel like I'm in such a new place today.

And it's, it is hard for me to go back to some of that because I do feel like such a new woman. And, you know, if someone would have told me at 11, when I had my first drink or 14, you know, the first time I was, um, experienced significant trauma and active addiction, or just kind of at these markers early on in my teenage and young adult life, if you would have shown me a picture of where I am today as, you know, a mother of twins, two beautiful babies, uh, married, having got back to graduate school.

and author of my second book. I'm signing my contract for a third book coming up. Um, you know, living this life that I  would have just dreamed of. I, I would have probably like, as a 14 year old blown smoke in your face and been like, no way. Like that is not the life that I'm going to have, but that is the life that I'm living today  as a woman in recovery.

And I'm walking that out boldly and, you know, confidently. I love that, that title of your podcast. Um,  It's so, uh, my life today is just so different than how I started, you know, an active addiction. And I think really a testament to, and why I love sharing about my story and talking about recovery, especially with other women is because our stories are a testament to the fact that we can change.

Like it doesn't matter what we've been through, where we've been, what we've done, what's been done to us. We can live a new life no matter what. So, um, That is a little bit about me and kind of maybe gives you a little bit of a picture of where I'm coming from today again. I don't like to kind of dig back into too much, but you know, I lived grew up in an in an alcoholic home. 

My mom had really significant mental health challenges. So I grew up in a very unstable environment. And so for me. using substances became a way to cope with some of, um, the ways that I grew up and just felt so untethered and just felt like I was, I don't know, floating alone on this island and, you know, without help and without a sense of belonging.

Um, but through the finding recovery in that process, I've been able to build a life that I'm proud of today and that I feel so, so grateful for. Um, so I'm just, I'm really excited to be here and have the opportunity to share more.  

Oh, thank you so much. I couldn't agree more with everything you've said.

And you know, I, I, um, got, I got sober in AA and that's just what happened. It was a long time ago. And that's really all we have. We have a rehab in AA and 12 step program and, and I wouldn't trade it for the world. I believe that it is still, um, the best way to kind of come in when you're new for a variety of reasons.

And, you know, we all know that there's lots and lots of ways to do this and, um, that's, That's, that's, that's so cool. But the one thing that I feel like I heard you say is kind of, um,  We get to share our stories today and some of us choose you and myself as well and many people we know to really do that out loud to recover out loud, and I was just sharing with another guest earlier that you know I don't.

We don't do that, um, as a prideful thing or as an ego. It's more, it's really for me, and I guess I can speak for myself. It is so much about,  um, sharing the message of hope, you know, and right now it's recovery month in September. You know, this is the message we're seeing. I'm posting about it. Lots of people are posting about it, that there is hope there is another way to live.

And so often when we are stuck in that active addiction phase, we really can't see that, you know, we just don't see how it's possible to thrive or have fun or be happy, um, in, without those substances. And, um, so I'm glad you really mentioned that. I don't know if I heard you say, and if you were willing to share a little bit about like, how did, how did you, um, come to become sober and, uh, did you use a specific program or tools?

How did you do that?  

Well, I love what you share about, you know, being visible and focal and definitely recovery month is an incredible time to do that. Part of the reason why I'm so passionate about it. And I agree with you too. It's like, this isn't because, you know, we're special or like think we're so great.

Um, it's about sharing. The message of hope that recovery is possible. And part of why I do that today is because as you know, a teenager, and that's really when I started struggling, um, significantly with alcoholism and then drug addiction,  I didn't know, and this was the nineties, right? Um, but I didn't know That there was a thing called recovery.

I certainly didn't know or think that people my age, a young person, a teen, even when I became a young adult in college, that people were sober, that this was a thing that, you know, it was a lifestyle and it was a healthy one and a fun one and an exciting one. So part of the reason why I share my story today is because at that time I didn't have those examples.

I felt so alone. And yes, there was 12 step and that's actually how I started as well. Um, I went to inpatient, uh, treatment as an adolescent. I had an overdose experience and I went twice to inpatient and, you know, did outpatient, but I always left there with this like firm resolve. Like I'm going to be sober. 

I want to live. I want to be healthy, but I would go back into the same environment where I got sick. I would go back into the halls of my high school where people were, you know, calling me names and saw me as like the drug addict, you know, loser, kind of like labeling me and stigmatizing me. I didn't have healthy communities of support and recovery.

to come alongside me or even those examples that were visible. You know, today we have celebrities coming out. We have, you know, dry bars and mocktails are a thing. I mean, like, you know, J Lo and some of these celebrities, even if they're not in recovery, like they are all about non drinking and that lifestyle because it's healthy and my goodness, great for our skin, you know, right?

Like there's all this messaging now around how amazing Being substance and free and alcohol free is, but back then it was just a totally different story. Um, so, so yeah, that's really how I started was a couple instances of treatment. I saw a therapist, you know, for me, what happened was inactive addiction. 

not only growing up in an unstable environment, but I started to experience things that a lot of women experience in active addiction. For me, that was sexual assault, sexual violence, uh, and so those types of traumas that were happening repeatedly kind of reinforced the cycle of substance use as escape, substance use as coping, as self medicating, and it just kind of snowballed.

And so it wasn't until my late 20s. So from. teens to 28, where I was struggling, I was, you know, um,  replacing substances, you know, I tried, well, hard drugs are my issue, I'll drink, well, drinking's an issue too, so I'll, you know, have a lot of sex with guys, you know, so it's, it was like I was replacing all of these food addiction, you know, um, replacing all of these things for so many years, and at 28, and at 28,  I remember I was kind of at a, I was at a breaking point and I was actually started going to this church.

You know, I was trying to find a solution. I was trying to find a spiritual solution. And there was an older woman. Her name's Vera.  I wish I knew where she was today.  But she You know, I, I went to her and I just said, you know, I'm really struggling. I can't stop drinking. And I've really been trying for a really long time to be in recovery.

And she said, you know, have you thought about going to AA? And I was like, well, no, you know, I haven't, you know, I had, I went when I was in high school and treatment, you know, but I didn't connect with anyone in, in the space at that time. And so she helped me find a young person's meeting at that time being in my twenties.

And I remember walking into this meeting and it was like, The first time I  made the connection that I was not alone, like my experience was not different. There were other people that looked like me, didn't look like me, but like were around my same age. And there were other people trying to do this. And it was the first time that really connected for me.

Um, and so from there, um, you know, doing 12 step, I also connected with an outpatient treatment center that, um, I love this so much. They gave me the opportunity to be of service when I had like four months sober, you know, the, the director of the clinic started a program. It was a mentorship program. So.

For people who had 90 days sober, you could mentor another patient in the outpatient treatment center. And it was all, you know, supervised and stuff. And, and she asked me, you know, I had four months when I started. She's like, would you want to be a mentor and help other women? And I was like, are you kidding me?

I can't even. You know, help myself. What do you, what are you saying? And here I'm almost 30 years old, you know, and she, but she said, you know, I, I see something in you and you have something to offer and your life has purpose and you can bring value to other women who have been where you've been. And  that purpose that that program gave me and that opportunity to be of service, I firmly believe changed the trajectory of my life because my sobriety was no longer something that I was just struggling with and gritting through and trying to do.

There was a reason. And I had a purpose to be able to use all that pain and use all that suffering that I had been through and try to help other people. Um, and so that's how I found her. And I, I have not looked back since, you know, and I'm, I spent all of my third. I love to, I love to meet women in their thirties or late twenties.

Cause I'm like, I've been in recovery my whole thirties and it was the best decade. And now I'm in my forties and it's even better. Um, Some crazy things are happening to my body. Um, but besides that, um, my forties are amazing. And, um, anyways, it's, it's been a journey. That's for sure. 

It sure is. Thank you so much for sharing that.

I really appreciate, um, I love that. I kind of see the routes that people take and kind of how, how we get where we are. And, um, you, you touched on a couple of really important things. And one of the reasons why, and again, I don't want, I'm not trying to make this like a big 12 step meeting, but, um, Um, or promotion or whatever, but it is just so the reason why it works or some of the reasons why it works or a creates that fellowship for people with sober people doing sober things, which most of us have zero clue about because we live in a society that's obsessed with substances.

And then also the focus on service. So like right away, um, and depending on where you go, and a lot of times you need to be in multiple meetings, right. So like here. To feel like where you might belong. Cause like any organization or system, not every part is for us. Right. So it's a go where we can find a good fit, but you're going to hear messages of like, you know, just being in the chair is of service showing up there is providing a service.

And then you can start layering on these other things. But that's one of the reasons why that program really works because it does highlight the, not only the opportunity, but the necessity.  for us to get outside of ourselves to help others, because naturally we are self centered and selfish, right? Like that's just our natural way.

And so the solution is to not be self centered and selfish by serving others or serving the community or somehow serving. Right. And so I love that for you. And thank you for sharing that part because I just think that I think it's an underrated, um,  perk of 12 step programs or just being, you know, trying to change and transform in general.

It's like getting outside of yourself in order to, um, get well, right? You know, you're not focused on yourself. So thank you for that. Um, I love the title of your first book. Um, it's so cool. Like the, um,  downstairs church. Um, I just think, I think it's, at first I read it and I was kind of like, Oh, this is interesting.

Like, I thought you were talking a little bit more like spirituality, which maybe is a part of your story, but then I was like, Oh, I get it. Um, I get what she means. And, um, I love that, um,  you were able to write that. I'm curious if you could just share a little bit more about kind of what that, what that book entails in a kind of general way, and then we can kind of chat about some of the highlights in there and, um, um, see where we go. 

Yeah, absolutely. Well, downstairs church. So I had the opportunity to interview Philip Yancy, who, um, folks may or may not know, but he was the bestselling journalist author, and he wrote a book, um, called what Scylla made thing about grace. And he talked about the 12 step, um, program of Alcoholics Anonymous.

And he went with a friend to a meeting and his experience of, and he's, he's a Christian and he talked about his experience of really experiencing grace. and forgiveness and belonging and all of these things he was supposed to be experiencing in the upstairs quote unquote church and the sanctuary. But really he was experiencing that through fellowships  of recovery.

Um, and in 12 step fellowship. And I just, I love that idea. And, you know, when I moved to the South from the Midwest, um, about six years ago, I was like,  Blown away by, you know, like where I was, we're up in Wisconsin. We had a bar on every corner, you know, in the south, there's a church on every corner. And it's like, wow, there's a lot of faith communities around, you know, um, and there's a lot of addiction stigma.

And there's a lot of people struggling with substance use and alcoholism and addiction. And, you know, how can we, um, I don't know. I just saw this need to highlight this issue of what happens in the recovery community. Um, how can faith communities maybe be involved in, in learning more about that and to be helpful in, um, bringing support in communities and not just for faith communities, but all communities.

How do we take what happens in recovery? And sometimes that is in the basement. in 12 step meetings in churches, but should it just be in the basement? You know, can we also be up in the light like we talked about earlier, being visible and vocal about our recovery so more people know that that happened?

So I had a couple different, you know, intentions in writing the book, um, really wanted to be a tool for community awareness, to educate faith communities, educate all communities about some of those gritty things that happen in recovery. I talk about my story. I talk about other folks stories that I've met along the way, bring in some research, um, but talk about what happens in recovery and why it's important that the whole community, uh, support that.

And, and why I think we,  those of us who feel moved to, I think not everyone needs to talk about their recovery visibly or vocally. And sometimes that's not safe or appropriate to do that for a variety of reasons. But when I talk about Why it's important that some of us, if we feel, um, that we can and, and that it's right for us to do so should come out of the quote unquote basement and talk about this openly.

Um, so I've, I had a lot of, um, really positive feedback from the book. And interestingly, I think, you know, a lot of times you hear writers say, well, you know, if, if I write, if my book will help one person, it was worth it. It was funny. I heard another author say, like,  if you want to write a book for one person, Considering all the work that it takes to write a book and you know this Shelby how hard it is like you should probably just write an email like you want to impact one person just do the email, save the book for like,  and I thought that was so funny.

Yeah, it's so true. But, but really, you know, I've heard people say that they've been moved to take action. in their churches, in their communities. You know, we had someone in our community basically start a recovery housing scholarship fund. Um, you know, some of these things that came from directly from reading this book.

And so it just, it moves me so much  to understand how, you know, when we share vocally and visibly, when we write our books, when we get these messages out, we can impact. not just individual people's lives recovery, but communities to be able to support, you know, recovery. And as an advocate, that is just, it's. 

It, you know, it makes me feel like I'm, I'm doing something worthwhile. So,  

Oh yeah, totally. And for sure you are doing something worthwhile. And again, I, I totally agree with you about impact and you're right, like not everybody is meant to sort of recover out loud, you know, and we all don't have to, you know, show up and share publicly on these forums where the whole world can see, um, those of us who want to do that certainly can.

And that's, and that's amazing. Um, those of us who don't want to do that can have impact in much, much different ways, right? We can have, we can have, um, a closer knit impact, you know, within our families, within our school systems, within our, our church groups and our local, but like sometimes it might even just be from  other people noticing, uh, how we live our lives, you know, or, or, or a way of thinking, you know, um, I do find in my, this is my own anecdotal experience, my own personal lived experience and something I find when I, when I worked with hundreds of other women doing, um, these things as well, that when we do find a deep connection, like with that authentic raw part of ourselves, and then we are able to share that in ways that make sense for us, it does elevate, I believe, our own. 

Our own peace and kind of sense of self and value and worth in ways that other things cannot just meaning kind of, you know, like dropping that sort of shame and guilt, you know, for me, I was fortunate to let go of that pretty early on. I'm not. Ashamed of who I am or what I am, um, and being able to share that also to, you know, I don't know about you, but I had experiences, you know, before I was even this public, uh, with people just in my world, like everybody knew in my world, you know, in my world, it wasn't, I wasn't out loud like this.

Um,  But I had experiences where other people came to me and said, Hey, um, my friend is really struggling with this, such and such, you know, or my husband or my, you know, had multiple experiences because people knew how I was living and that I was in recovery. They were able to come to me as a resource. And to me that, like that just stripped down the anonymous. 

Um, quality of, of 12 step or any program, uh, to those roots of like, no, um, sometimes it's really nice for other people to be like, oh, I know someone who's doing that or who did that. And they can go to them in a very personal way. Um, so in that way, I do think  finding a space for out loud, whatever that looks like for you is.

It's really valuable. 

Yeah.  Yeah. No, I, that's so good. And one of the things too, I think that goes along with that. And I I've shared this on, on social media and different, you know, things before, but the most important work that I do in terms of impact and working with others. Is not thing. It's not the stuff that gets put on blast.

It's not the stuff I can talk about in podcasts or write about in my books. It is that one on one interaction and, and kind of walking out my recovery, um, in a personal way. Um, so I think it's important to, for people, you know, who are listening, who may be like, well, I don't know if I want to be on a podcast or write a book or should I, you know, is it something I have?

And no, I think everyone has a different way to be of service. And. There's no value associated with one is not better than the other. Like we all, and I, I believe that the best things happen.  in secret when we're giving back and being of service and helping another person. We're not doing that, putting it on a social media post or, or those types of things.

So kind of like you said, walking out, not being anonymous and being visible, but in a way that is relational and intimate, um, and can impact another person's life. So, um, but I think this, question of, and I, and maybe that's why it's been such a struggle for so many years, but anonymity in 12 step fellowships, you know, I remember when I was learning about advocacy, um, over a decade or so ago when I kind of started in this and learned about the fact that, you know, the Alcoholics Anonymous, GSO, Grand Service Organization, or, you know, actually put out a statement on anonymity because there was this question around, you know, what did the founders of AA really believe?

And, you know, the founders, including Marty Mann, who was kind of out on this national tour, who worked with, um, Bill Wilson, was out on a national tour, speaking to legislators, speaking in public, you know, they, they were also loud and visibly talking about recovery. And so I think sometimes that  You know, have concerns about the anonymity concept.

There's historical perspective to that talks about ways that we can do that. That is protecting anonymity of 12 step fellowships while also being vocal and visible as well.  

I didn't know that part and I thank you so much for sharing that. I love it. Um, and it makes total sense because. They had to get the word out somehow, you know, this didn't, this started in, you know, somebody's home and in the driveway and talking about stuff.

And, you know, they had to get the word out and spread the message. And, uh, and that's, I feel like that's what we're doing. You know, we're just truth tellers who want to share the message of hope and  being able to thrive in recovery. And that's kind of the reason why I. really dove a little bit more into um, work outside of my clinical work around recovery specifically for women.

Because most of the time, most of the work that I came across in this more modern day recovery era, was. was focused around on like getting sober, only kind of that getting sober phase, which obviously is incredibly important. We need, we need to figure out how to do that. Um, but there wasn't a ton of people, authors, whoever influencers  talking about and promoting like, well, how do we live well, um, in long term recovery?

You know, how do we How do we stay married, um, and raise teenagers and, um, you know, work and things while also not, um, numbing out with substances, you know? And so that's kind of what I, why I wrote my memoir was to, yes, tell a little bit of my story, but mostly to talk about like,  this is how we, this is how we stay. 

And well, this is how we get and stay well, um, in recovery, which, which is a whole other subset of,  of work, right? And a lot of it is around the work that you and I both do around trauma and it's so critical because you have to be able to heal that past trauma and work into kind of this new self, um, evolve, which is super duper, duper important.

Um,  I'm curious about this for you, like, you know, like, and being so getting sober as a young person is such a unique, unique experience. I was 27. So I was a little bit older than you, but totally different stage of life, right? Like, I wasn't in that like, kind of teenage college years. Um, so getting sober as a young person, and then kind of evolving into an adult and recovery is, it's pretty cool.

Um, but also I feel like fairly unique. Um, so I'm curious. I only say it that way because you've been living in long term recovery for a long time, right? Like, probably a lot longer than maybe some people 

are listening. So, and maybe, maybe I wasn't super clear. So I started my journey at, at like 17. That's kind of when I started treatment and stuff, but I didn't, Find long term recovery until 28.

Oh, okay. You're past you. 

Got it. Okay. So, so that's similar. So I'm curious about that. After you kind of got, you know, you start working on your program, you're getting in staying sober and doing well. And then once we get past that sort of like one year mark or a little bit after that early sobriety, I feel like that's like a step up.

Special needs time. Um, usually we kind of wake up and the fog is lifted and we come very clear on kind of what we want, who we are, different things. And I'm just curious about how that looked for you. If that was your experience and then kind of how that showed up in your, you know, your relationships and your own, um, in your own world. 

Yeah, well, thank you for bringing that up. So it's part of actually why I wrote my second book, which is coming out soon, depending on when your listeners are hearing this September 24th, um, 2024, but you are not your trauma. And so what happened to me in early recovery about a year in  And then two years in, I started to realize that there was a lot more going on under the surface that I had not yet addressed.

And so I remember my first, um, sponsor actually in, uh, 12 step recovery suggested that I not date for a year. Um, and you may, folks may be familiar with that kind of quote unquote rule, um, that a lot of sponsors share with their sponsees for good reason. Um, I didn't quite wait that long. I definitely should have.

Um, but I got into one and then a series of very unhealthy, toxic relationships with people in recovery. Um, you know, and love folks dearly. I'm not saying anything against those individuals, but  what I realized was that I was very much not showing up as a healthy woman. in recovery that even though I was not using substances,  excuse me, I was walking out, um, my journey and very toxic ways and trauma symptoms still had a very firm grip on my life.

And the fact that I had quit using substances, which was my coping mechanism.  And my way to self medicate a lot of my trauma symptoms, um, like just these, um, you know, a lot of anxiety and depression. And, you know, I would later be diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder, which I think may be under diagnosed within populations of recovery. 

I got to a point, and this was when I went back to graduate school, um, because I wanted to help people, you know, in recovery, while at the same time I was discovering I still needed all this help. So I decided to take a leap of faith and do what I was learning in recovery, which was I was struggling, so I needed to reach out.

And so I reached out, um, to a therapist. I started doing more.  therapy, uh, specifically geared toward my trauma. I did a evidence based, um, modality, which you're likely familiar with, called Seeking Safety, which is really a strengths based, kind of skills based, uh, model for addressing both substance use and trauma.

Um, and I had just phenomenal success with this. I'm a huge proponent of it. And I started to learn about healthy ways to cope with and manage some of my trauma symptoms and some of the things that were coming up for me, um, and and dealing with some of those memories and things. So I've talked a lot of women and the countless folks that I've worked with who have a similar experience of a year in recovery, two years, three years, five years, where like the layers just kind of start coming off and we are in a place, our minds are in a place of kind of being healed and clear enough to start finally looking at some of these deeper seated issues and these things that have been going on.

Um, and so, you know, with this next book, You Are Not Your Trauma, I really wanted to explore some of that of what happens as we kind of start to come out of the fog, um, as we quit using substances and start our recovery journey. And for me, a part of that too, was realizing how connected my experience of trauma was also connected to my family's experience and looking at some of those dynamics.

So the book I actually co wrote with my mother, um, Diana, and she talks about some of her, um, experiences. very similar to my own and that kind of intergenerational piece that  what I didn't realize in early recovery and really it took me several years into recovery to discover through working with a therapist and other supports was it wasn't just my trauma that I was working on, it was my mother's and kind of this generational piece that was, um, connected with my experience.

And so it's been so life transforming to go through and dig into some of these issues to learn some new skills around coping. Um, in the book, I have a whole section on resilience practices where things that we can do to help build and foster our own resilience. Um, and I think especially for Women like me who've survived trauma, who've survived sexual violence, having skills and learning tools to be able to identify and understand that I have agency, I have control, there are things I can do and choices that I can make for my healing today, has been so pivotal to my journey. 

I love all this. There's a couple of things I really want to touch on and make sure we spend the rest of our time on specifically. And then definitely I want you to go buy Caroline's book. Uh, you are not your trauma comes out September 24th, 2004. So, um, by the time this comes out, it will be very soon or after that date.

So, um, please make sure you go grab it, but I do want, I told you, I want everyone to read the book, but I do want us to be able to talk a little bit about what's in there. First of all, I would love for you to, um, to highlight if you could, uh, you don't have to, you know, obviously tell all of your personal stuff, but what were some, or maybe in your own experience, what are some of the trauma symptoms that you're referring to?

Can you express some of those and like kind of how they show up?  

Yeah. So one of the ones I talk a lot about in the book is actually centered on boundaries, um, or having challenges with setting boundaries. So one of the ways that trauma really, um, I was able to identify, you know, the symptoms kind of manifesting themselves and  really impacting the way that I was living my life really clear around relationships.

So, um, I don't know if folks listening have this experience, but it was like, you know, if someone was giving me attention or if I knew someone liked me, or, you know, I walk into a recovery meeting and it's like, Oh, I met a guy who's, you know, jobless, homeless. carless,  you know, hairless, you know, I'm like, sign me up, you know, um, he, I had no sense of worth or sense of the fact that I could make decisions and set boundaries around what I was going to allow into my life, who I was going to allow into my life.

And those choices, I did not feel like I had agency to set up boundaries and by boundaries, it's not just like, Oh, I'm not going to spend time with you, but it's. I'm not going to allow you into my physical space. I am not going to let you do whatever it is that you, you know, want to do or, you know, those types of things.

And I think a lot of times, especially in early recovery, when we're survivors of specific types of trauma, that sense of boundary, that sense of, Um, self, um, physical, uh, boundaries is just it's so distorted and warped. Um, and so that was something that I really had to come to understand and not just around relationships, you know, with men for me, or, you know, that the sexual, uh, relationships and boundaries, but even walking that out in my jobs with coworkers.

You know, um, people talk about trauma responses being fight, flight, or freeze. Um, the fourth one that I've loved, I've heard of recently, is fawn. You know, this idea that we will just fall all over anyone, and to people please, and make sure everyone is okay at the Um, and so doing that,  really a sense of like this lack of boundary again and value of myself.

It was always about making sure everyone else was okay, making sure everyone else has what they need at the expense of what was good for me. Uh, so identifying that my distorted sense of boundaries, my inability to commute, assert, communicate assertively and in a healthy way and set up those boundaries was really a kind of a past way that my trauma symptoms were still wreaking havoc.

But when I was able to learn how to, like, for example, communicate assertively, start learning more about my worth, practice setting those boundaries, um,  that really shifted something for me in my recovery journey and things like anxiety and low self worth and depression. All of those other symptoms started to kind of decrease as I started to have more sense of agency.

I felt more empowered, confident, you know, emboldened, a greater sense of self and dignity. Um, so that, that is one of the, the main ones that I like to talk about in the book. And the book also goes through kind of this series of rhythms. Um, the first one being in honoring and protecting ourselves and our, you know, our bodies, the body, which are, which is a temple, you know, our bodies are so precious, um, and are so valuable.

So, um, yeah, so that's just one example. 

I love that. So I just want to make sure that, um, we kind of highlight this really clearly. So what I heard you say is definitely some trauma symptoms look like clinical things, like mental health issues, like depression, anxiety, things like that. And some other, you didn't say this, but so maybe some other physical symptoms like insomnia, lack of sleep, you know, um, not being able to, um, eat or feed yourself properly, things like this.

And then, but what you also said was this other sort of. I'm thinking more like a social symptom, maybe where you were,  it's probably not the correct term, but where you were like allowing people to come into your world, like too much, you were allowing too much of others to like, come into your spaces and like take parts of you that maybe you weren't really, Wanting to do that, but you kind of just let it happen.

So that's like another trauma symptom.  Is that what you, okay. So that's really, um, I think super helpful because I don't, I I'm glad that you said it that way because I wouldn't have really shared that almost as a symptom, like a lack of boundaries being a symptom, but it definitely is. And it makes perfect sense.

And I think we do this in all areas of our lives, you know, it becomes almost addiction. I don't know, for me manifested in other ways. Like I can make myself. And I'm not with a lot of other things like food, for example, or some people can use sex or shopping or pornography or whatever else to kind of give us that same dopamine hit.

And that release that we got from substances before. And it feels more socially acceptable, but still addictive behavior. Um, yeah. And so then, right, so then the, the tips, tricks and skills and tools around like how do we manage our trauma symptoms and then, and then heal from that, as I know what you talk a lot about in your book, um, the one, I know we just talked about boundaries and we can highlight that for a minute and then I'd love to hear a few others.

From your work, um, and I talk about boundaries as well a lot in my, in my work as well, and I created a little, um, a little mini course kind of on like creating healthy boundaries, which is like super educational with lots of really good examples and like a really fast way to kind of. To kind of dig into like what this even means, because sometimes when you're talking to people, I know that a lot of times they've heard, because of social media and things, we've heard that term, but we don't really know what that means.

And it can be manifested in some people as like a total cutting off, like, oh, if I have boundary, that means I'm like no contact, or I can't be in that person's life, or I can't do this, or I can't do that. And, and that might be true. Right. That might be true for some people that we have to have, like, those kinds of extreme boundaries in some situations, for sure.

But, but more often than not, I think, in for the everyday folk, it's, it's much more subtle than that. And it's, and it's happening and needs to be happening in like all of the areas of our life. So you mentioned relationships, and I think that's the, the place where this shows up the most. And  It can be super simple  in my view, and you can, I'd love to hear what your thoughts are, um, to create, uh, some, it's not easy, right?

But it can be simple to create a boundary around somebody who's creating issues for you. So for example, maybe somebody is like overly critical in your life. Maybe you have a family member Or a spouse or a friend or something that's like, every time we get together, they're just like abrasive and like harsh.

And they're coming at you about, you know, whatever your clothes or your way, or there's like overly critical. And so it's super simple to create a boundary with that person. Again, it's not easy over time. It gets better where you can just start to highlight to that person. Like, Hey, when, um, when you say that it's, it's really hurts my feelings. 

Like that really hurts my feelings when you say that.  You know, and I think sometimes when we do that, like right direct and like look someone in their face and we do that right in that moment, it can be such a wake up call and help someone be like, oh, like, wow, I didn't even know I was saying that or, or really get into defense mode.

Like, well, I wasn't trying to do that. There's not much anybody can really say. When you do that, because you didn't say like, you're being a jerk or you're this, you said it hurt. Like, I, I felt really hurt when you say that. And it's kind of like a shutting down of it. It's like saying, Nope, like that's not okay with me.

And I don't want to continue on with that. And the more you do that over and over, sometimes things get worse before they get better in my experience. But like, oftentimes it doesn't take long for somebody to kind of realize, Oh, she is not going to respond in any kind of way. That's like giving me anything.

And so this isn't working anymore and I'm not going to do 

that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love that. And it's so practical. I mean, and like you shared earlier, you know, our trauma symptoms, it's not just that clinical like representation of like insomnia or anxiety. It can be around these issues of having trouble setting that boundary of communication or allowing this type of.

Like action like this person and I wanted to be like, how do you know that person in my life because I think we all have that person right where we have to practice assertive communication and these I feel statements and kind of own that. And I think for me too. I've had to come to a place of  learning how to communicate assertively and then also. 

understanding that my time and my life is so valuable, you know, and again, not from an ego place, but like my, my time is so valuable. My mental energy is so valuable. Sometimes I will obsessively think about this person in my life that is doing these things, you know, and I, my husband will sometimes be like, why are you, you know, you don't need to just be so wrapped up. 

I can just set that boundary and, and try to set that boundary with myself. It's, I'm not going to give this person that this valuable time, this mental time, the space in my mind, um, my, you know, even my physical time. So sometimes I'll make decisions of, you know, if I see this person in a meeting or a space, I'm not going to willingly walk up to them anymore.

I'm not going to say, you know, I'm going to smile and like move on. Like I don't need to, I don't need this in my life anymore. And it is such a help. It's such a freeing mindset when we can move from a place of like having to deal with some of these conflicts to making the decision of, you know, if I am in this situation, I'll use assertive communication, but I don't also have to put myself in these positions anymore.

I don't have to do this anymore. I 

think we grow into it. Right. And a lot of this too does have to do with age and stage. I think for me personally, and I think many women, uh, as we grow into our forties, particularly I'm at the back half of that now, and it's getting better and better and better with time.

We begin to get into that space where we just aren't going to do certain things anymore. Um, and certain we're not gonna allow people to affect us in that way anymore. So some of this does happen with age. Um, but one of the things I've tried to really talk to my I have two daughters and then a son or almost 21 19 and 16.

And I've constantly talked to the girls to all of them, but like about about this, right? Like, so the really the definition of boundaries is you're teaching other people how you want to be treated. And so You have to continuously do that because again, relationships are always evolving and other people are aging and staging too.

So we have to always be teaching other people how we want to be treated. And it's different for each of us. Some of us want to be workaholics and it's completely fine with us to like work 12, 15 hours a day and take a phone call at eight o'clock at night. And that's like, it's fine. And other people really feel like that's disrupting their peace.

So they need to I don't, I don't take phone calls after six o'clock or whatever that looks like for you, you know, um, and I think we're, I think I'm not a, I'm not a man. I've never been a man. I guess. I don't know. But like, I feel like for women, this is challenging because in our society, I feel like it's probably getting somewhat better.

I see a change in the younger generations a little bit, but in our society, the gender roles are still kind of, um, Are, are, um, are emphasized a little in some ways. And so I don't think it says, I don't think it's the same. It's like maybe when our parents were growing up and then when we were growing up, but so I do think it's evolving, but for a lot of women, I think they don't feel like they have permission to do that.

They don't feel like they're allowed to say, please don't speak to me that way. You know, or I don't like it when you come into my personal space like that, or I don't like when you raise your voice. I'm not going to, I'm not going to stay here for that conversation. Like, I think so often we feel like we're not allowed. 

To say those things and that's, I feel like that's part of the problem that I want to be on mission to break down because we need to let people know, especially I think young women, um, that, yeah, you, you don't have to be, you always need to be kind. We do need to be kind and nice or, I mean, just kind, respectful, I guess, but we also can say what we want and don't want about our, our lives. 

And, and the way people treat us. So  I think we need to continue on a mission on that, like with young people. 

Oh, I love, and it ties so well too, into this idea of being visible and vocal and advocates for recovery. We're also advocates for ourselves. You know, we're advocates for generations that are coming up before us or behind us to be like, look, we don't have to live like this.

You know, we don't have to live like how our parents lived, you know, and I talk about this. My mom and I talk about it in the book. I don't want to live out the trauma symptoms like eating disorders and, you know, relationship issues and like my mother, because I don't want my daughter or my son to do that.

You know, like we can break these cycles and we can show the next generation that we can do it. We can be advocates for ourselves. Our lives are valuable and purposeful and meaningful. And we don't, we don't have to live, um, the way that our parents have. And that's, that is such a,  I think, a, a weighty kind of calling, but also so amazing that we get to do that.

And we get to show up today like that, not only for ourselves, but for, Next generations, you know, amazing.  It 

is amazing. And I think we're blessed because we're in kind of in the field and we have a lot of knowledge around this. We've done our own personal work and that's one of the blessings of recovery, right?

We get to do all of this personal work and then and then that allows us to show up better and differently for our kids. And then we can. Be good models, but also really, you know, literally teach them about this stuff. You know, I, um, I, my girls are only 18 months apart. And so like all my, all my kids are, they're pretty close in age and, you know, they're different personalities.

And I've, and I think I've shared this before, but my middle one is like, just really, you know, much more direct. She's my, my lawyer type and she's not emotive. And the older one is much more emotional and just kind of big and loud and passionate and just and wonderful in so many ways, too. But sometimes that makes interactions very challenging.

And so she wants to be like in it and like keep coming and come at and and so they'll get into they've had these different situations where there's been maybe an issue going on and like. One, one has gone and said, like, Hey, um, I have a concern about this, or did you do this or whatever? And then the other one, we get, well, she'll get very upset and she'll keep wanting to come at her.

And I've really had to work closely with that, um, middle one about, you know, about boundaries. Right. And I've said, like, you don't have to respond to any of that. You can say to her, we've had this conversation multiple times, I've said, it's okay for you to say, I've heard what you've said, it's so important to me, but I'm no longer going to continue this conversation over text, or whatever, you know, like, whatever it is, or I've heard what you've said, you've said it multiple times, I've told you my response, so I'm no longer going to respond, you know, and like, this is a way that we can then train them up to be able to be like, great, 0  Advocates for themselves and their own lives, great leaders in their companies or in their schools, you know, and in their relationships to be able to say like, yeah, I don't let people treat me.

A certain kind of way. And, um, I think giving permission to women to do that is so important. You know, for the generations coming up, you know, and again, it's not to be a jerk. We don't get to be rude. You know, I mean, unless we really need to like put our foot down on something, but we did.  Yeah. Um, but we just need to be firm and like, and, and also this takes practice to get to the level.

I think where you and I, I still get a little bit of us. Twinge in my stomach sometimes when I know I need to say something like that. But like in the beginning, you're, you're probably gonna be uncomfortable. You're not gonna like it, you know, but you can be doing all that on the inside. And be like, oh, this isn't good.

But like still with your word saying, I'm not going to continue this conversation.  And then be able to just get better and better and better at it. So.  It's a blessing. It's a real blessing to be able to say, like, I don't, you know, I don't let anybody treat me that way. You 

know, It really is. And, you know, I think the fruit of all this really hard work, like in recovery with relationships with boundaries and with, you know, learning how to communicate the fruit of all this hard work and uncomfortable work at times is it does get easier over time and we get to live fuller, more joyous lives.

You know, in recovery, um, more confident again, I love the name of your pocket, but just, you know, we get to live more full lives, uh, the more that we practice these things. So it might be uncomfortable for a time, just like quitting substances is uncomfortable for a time, but we move past that when we get to the really good stuff on the other side of that.

We really do. And again, like I said, I mean, just practice makes you better. You know, you just get better and better and better at it. And then you start to feel like you can do it in other areas of your life. And it doesn't excuse us from having to do some of like the really annoying and difficult things in life.

Like there's lots of things that we have to do that we don't like to do, you know, like the laundry still has to get done. You still have to go to that meeting with your boss. I mean, there's just things that we are going to have to do, but when it comes to the way, um, people relate with us specifically in relationships and those more intimate ones, you know,  you can easily put down things, you know, and it's, and it's, once you start getting into it, um, I, I, I do this so often with some of my clients and they're literally like shocked.

I'll say this very simple things. Like when you're talking to your mom on the phone and like, she starts to get like really critical or negative or like constantly like repeating the negative stuff. You can then say, Hey mom, you know, I heard what you said, but it sounds like you're getting like super negative right now.

I'm going to have to end this and we'll talk later. And they're like, Hey.  Like, I, I, like, they're, first of all, they're shocked that that, that's even like an option, I think. And like, then they feel like, Oh, I can't do that. And I'm like, no, you really can. And like, you don't have to say anything negative about her.

And you can also say, Hey, let's circle back. Let's circle back on this when you're in a better space or when you can be nicer, you know? And, and  it's like, it's that, it could be that simple. We can really break it down into that simple. So.  I want everyone to go get your book and you can read about all the other cool strategies for, um, dealing with your trauma symptoms, really healing those parts of you that are kind of still left a little raw when we get into recovery.

And that's the wonderful blessing of being sober today. So I thank you so much for your time and, um, for your work. And I can't wait for our paths to cross again. I really have enjoyed this conversation. So where do you like people to reach out to you and, and kind of hang out when they want to. 

Yeah, well, I love to hang out on substack, so I have a weekly email that comes out.

Um, you can find me on substack. My letter is called Circle of Chairs, and you can also find me, uh, at my website, carolinebeidler.  com, and that's B E I D L E R, carolinebeidler. com. Perfect. 

And I'll make sure I link to those in the show notes below where people can, can find you and follow all your work.

And we look forward to the new book coming out. Um, I can't wait to read it myself and share it with all my, my friends. So thank you again so much. And I'll talk to you soon. That's great. Thank you.