Transforming Addiction into Empowerment: A Sober Woman's Journey to Emotional Sobriety w/Kelley Kitley

In this powerful episode of Confident Sober Women, with Kelley Kitley, a Chicago-based psychotherapist and author, to explore the nuanced journey of women in sobriety.

Kelley shares her compelling story of growing up above her parents' bar and her path to recovery, offering insights that will resonate with many sober women. The conversation touches on:

• The evolution of recovery resources, from traditional 12-step programs to modern approaches like neurofeedback therapy for anxiety
• The importance of developing consistent routines and self-care practices in early sobriety
• How EMDR therapy can be a powerful tool for addressing underlying trauma in addiction
• The concept of emotional sobriety and its crucial role in long-term recovery
• Strategies for avoiding cross-addiction and maintaining balance in recovery
• The value of sharing personal stories to break stigmas around addiction and mental health

Kelley and Shelby discuss the complexities of parenting in sobriety, navigating relationships, and the ongoing work of self-discovery. They emphasize the importance of community and connection in sustaining a fulfilling sober lifestyle.

Listeners will gain practical insights on:

• Building a strong foundation in early recovery
• Developing emotional resilience and self-awareness
• Balancing self-care with family and professional responsibilities
• Utilizing various therapeutic modalities, including neurofeedback for anxiety
• The power of vulnerability and authenticity in recovery

Whether you're new to sobriety or have years of recovery, this episode offers valuable perspectives on the journey of women in sobriety. Kelley's expertise as a therapist, combined with her personal experience, provides a unique and inspiring look at transforming addiction into a life of purpose and empowerment.

Don't miss Kelley's recommendations for resources on and connect with her at www.kelleykitley.com, where you can learn more about her practice and her book, "MY self." Also, find her on Instagram @kelleykitley. Let's celebrate sober women

Transcript

Shelby (00:01):

Hey there, Kelly. It's great to see you. And thank you so much today for joining me on the Confidence Sober Women Podcast. I would love to just turn the mic over to you now and let you share a little bit more about your story and then we're going to chat.

Kelley (00:13):

Sure. I love it. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to meet you. So my name's Kelly Kiley and I'm a Chicago native. I grew up above my parents' bar, which probably says a lot about my story in the Lincoln Park area of Chicago not far from Wrigley Field, and grew up as the oldest of five in a really normalized drinking culture. My paternal grandfather owned the bar and then my dad bought it from him and we lived above the bar. And like I said, it was just really culturally acceptable and this piece of extended family of the locals who came by the bar after work, and some of them were teachers at our school. And it was a really positive experience for me, and I was very curious about the alcohol culture at a young age as well. I had my first drink, which resulted in a blackout at the age of 12, and then had sworn off drinking for a little while and then found myself back into drinking later on in high school and certainly binge drinking in college.

(01:31):

So much so that I decided to study addiction. I have a lot of family members who are either active addicts or are in long-term recovery. So the good news is I knew where to go once my drinking became problematic, but I really tried to dodge the bullet most of my life in terms of how alcohol impacted me. It destroyed my parents' marriage after 20 years and I vowed to not follow in those footsteps, but I met my husband at my parents' bar in my early twenties and we have four teenage children now. And when I got sober 11 and a half years ago, I remember pouring a glass of wine after work and thinking, oh my gosh, I'm following in similar patterns and footsteps as my own parents. So I was very aware of alcohol and the high risk that I was taking in choosing to drink, but I had all these qualifiers, never drank during the day, never lost my job, felt like that I could manage it.

(02:51):

I was running marathons, all these very highly productive qualifiers that made me think I'm doing well. But when I would drink, I would drink to excess and do things that I regretted and would swear off drinking the next day for the rest of my life and find myself grabbing a bottle of wine on my way home from work to help with the evening transition with small kids at home. And my best friend got sober about six weeks before I did, and she drank very similarly to me, and I just saw the transformation really quickly for her and asked how she did it. And she took me to a women's meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, and that changed everything for me.

Shelby (03:41):

Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. And I'm sure there's lots of people out there that can relate to your story. I'm not sure about the living above the bar part, but maybe, and there's probably lots of kids that grew up just like that or in the back of restaurants or sweeping the floors up, helping out at the end of the day after these long nights in places where there's tons of drinking. So that lifestyle becomes your norm. You do you think this is how everybody does it, this is just what people do for fun or when they're not well or whatever the reason. And so yeah, it sounds like you just continue the family tradition. So what I heard you say last was that you got sober in AI and I did as well, and congrats on your 11 years. So I always love to ask people about that experience and I don't want to make it a whole big thing about it, but my experience was I got sober kind of a little bit before you a while ago, and that's all we really had.

(04:44):

We just had 12 step programs in rehab, that was it. And now we didn't have all the things that we have access to now with Zoom meetings and quit lit and all the podcasts and modern day recovery stuff. And there's pluses and minuses to that. I guess for me it was fine. I didn't know anything else. So that was all I knew. That was what I taught to do, and so that's what I did. I always like to check in with people because one of the things that I've noticed in my own, my own experience and then certainly in working with hundreds of women over the years who have gotten and stayed sober is that early sobriety time is such a kind of tender time. I always say it's like we have special needs. There's a lot going on, I don't know about you, but I had to really relearn how to or learn, maybe not even relearn how to take care of myself and run my life.

(05:35):

And the silly things like brush your teeth twice a day and feed yourself properly and not exercise for three hours a day and wash my face, stuff like that. Just, I don't know, wasn't really a part of my life regularly taking care of myself and just wellness things and not to mention all the other emotional stuff. So anyway, there's a lot going on during that time, but what I've noticed is that after about a year or so is when women really tend to come alive, that your brain starts to be clear, your sobers ever going to be, the fog is lifted and now you're being exposed to the possibilities of life. So these opportunities and possibilities that maybe were just barsol dreams before that we talked good talk about are now like, wow, I could actually do that no longer drinking yourself to death. And so that, I feel like that does happen after that, around that year mark, between one and five years, it's like a big time for that. But then very often what I see and where I really love to meet people kind of in my work is they have these feelings, these desires of their heart are bubbling up and they've got all these ideas, but they don't really have the roadmap for how to get there. So what do we do? How do we actually make this from a dream to reality, if you will? And I'm just curious if that is something you could relate to and then how that worked out for

Kelley (07:06):

You. Sure. So I learned to be more gentle with myself in recovery. I tended to be an overachiever and juggle a lot of balls in the air and tried rigorously not to drop any of them. And so I agree. I mean, when I first got sober, I feel like there wasn't a whole lot of resources either as there are now with sober curiosity. And I did find myself constantly looking for books on spirituality and women who have been down the road of recovery and really glomming on to their story and if they could do it, how did they do it? And I want to be like that. And so I think that's evolved and changed throughout my sobriety too, as you mentioned, going from AA for the first few years to then sober retreats and online programs like she recovers and going to speaking engagements and it just continues to enhance my recovery.

(08:18):

And I think what I did get really clear about in terms of visions and dreams was my consistency. So I would do these incredible things. For example, I climbed Machu Picchu with my best friend and thought, oh, I can do that and I'll have this spiritual revelation and all my problems will go away and I'll just stand on that mountain. And I did that and it worked. But then when I would come back from an experience like that, I would be depressed and anxious and overwhelmed and back to the daily rigamarole of life. And so for me, it was really finding a daily practice and a consistency to making sure that I was living my best life as a mom, as a wife, as a professional. I've been a clinical social worker for over 20 years. And so self-care was always something I worked on.

(09:23):

I had worked through an eating disorder and some traumas and kept feeling like, okay, I got this, I got this. And it wasn't until my thirties that I really had to take a hard look at the alcohol. And once I removed that piece of it and started working on some of the therapeutic components in my marriage and trying to break the cycle of what I grew up with was when I felt like I could show up differently and have more of those aha moments or spiritual connections just by waking up five minutes early and writing a gratitude list or journaling or lighting a candle and then being able to ask for help more was something that I really learned. I always thought I got to do it on my own. My mom told me she quit drinking by asking God to help her and God was her sponsor. And I felt like I did that so many times and it didn't work. It wasn't until I connected with other like-minded women who were at that time, also mothers who were drinking similarly as I was that I felt like things really started to change for me.

Shelby (10:38):

Wow. Thanks so much for sharing all of that. I really appreciate that and I still can relate to it. And I love the example about doing the climb. So good for you, by the way. That sounds pretty amazing. I would love to do something. I mean, I've done a lot of really cool things too. You mentioned you were running marathons. I mean even that kind of thing, it's, it takes a lot of planning too, and I've done that as well, and you plan them out and you do the work and then you get the thing, and then there is a letdown that happens. It's kind of like when you got married or if you had another experience, there's always this big hype and then, oh my gosh, it's over. And

(11:19):

It does feel a little bit like depression or overwhelming, which is weird because this was a really good thing. I just climb this thing, or I completed the marathon, or I get married, whatever. So it's kind of a weird experience to have this amazing thing that you just went through and then have this weird let down after effect. But it does make sense because when we're working at such a high level, a heightened level of expectation and striving, when that's over, it's like, oh, well, I'm just left with get the kids up in the morning and then we come home and do the homework and I'm making dinner and I go to work. And the mundane things of life, which recently by the way, I have learned, somebody said to me the peace that we get in life, especially in our older years, is from the boring mundane things that was recently said to me, and I can't even remember the context, but it was such a light bulb for me. I mean, I'm 49 now, so I get it. I'm a little bit older, but it was such a light bulb thinking back even to my younger years too, that is where we get real peace and honestly even freedom when we just show up and do the same thing every day. And it sounds so boring and so not spontaneous, not exciting, but we get that joy and I dunno, can you relate to this? Is this making sense?

Kelley (12:51):

Absolutely. I can relate to it. I'm an adrenaline junkie, so I'm always looking for the next hit of dopamine, the excitement. And I've really had to learn, of course, I'm human and I still love amazing experiences and my takeaway, but I remember in early sobriety too, it was like, oh, just sitting on my front porch and drinking coffee and watching my kids play in the front yard, that brought so much joy. And yeah, I do. There's a saying in aa, chop wood, carry water, keep doing the same thing. And I know routine is good for us, and I'm a behavioral therapist, so I get that, but sometimes I always try to make it more complicated than it needs to be. And when I simplify things, I'm like, oh, this feels really good.

Shelby (13:51):

Yeah, I agree. It does feel really good. And that routine, you think about our children, I have three young adult children as well, so we're kind of close. I think in that stage when you think about raising kids on the routine that they crave, they need it. This is why things like school work or whatever, our bedtime routines, things that make people feel comfortable and safe, and it reduces overwhelm, it reduces our anxiety. We know what to expect every night We do this,

(14:19):

Every morning we do this. Now of course things change. There's a snow day or somebody is sick or there's an emergency. Some things throw the wrench in our plans and our days change all the time, especially when we have kids. But just having those things to count on, like you mentioned, the routines is so critical. And you probably learned this too, when I showed up in aa, I was taught that I'm not really even sure what my routines were in active addiction. It's been so long. I mean, I probably had some, I guess, but I don't really know. I don't think it was very formal. I don't think I appreciated it. I certainly dunno that I look forward to any of it. And so I had to be taught that you just do the same thing every single day over time, that's what creates the big transformations. So I started with just, I get up at the same, about the same time every morning. I have my coffee, I read for a little while, I have prayer time, and then I might just whatever, do whatever for a few minutes and then I go exercise in some way or move my body.

(15:35):

And that was developed over time. It might just start out with five minutes. For five minutes. You do a little meditation or you read a little positive material, do some affirmations or journaling, and then you carry on and then you can build on it because maybe five minutes is all you can handle right now.

Kelley (15:54):

But

Shelby (15:54):

Just getting used to doing the same thing every single day like that. And also, I love a morning routine. It is so important because it creates expectation that no matter what's going on, and over time your brain starts to expect this and learn, this is what I do every day. So you can have the worst day ever or be going through something horrible, but your brain knows, well, tomorrow morning I'm going to sit in that chair. I'm going to have my coffee. It's going to be quiet and very nice. And it's like something for you to look forward to.

Kelley (16:22):

Oh, absolutely. That morning routine and that helps me to feel grounded. And I think too, as we talk about parenting, that can be really good modeling behavior too. And when I was drinking, I was so unpredictable, and so I would set good intentions. I'm only going to drink two drinks tonight, and then I'd have 12 or I'm not going to be hungover in the morning, or maybe I will, or maybe I'll black out or maybe I won't. There was so much Russian roulette with that that I love being able to today say, I'm going to do something and have follow through or know if I do this. X is usually the outcome.

Shelby (17:11):

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think that's so powerful and important, and we really do minimize it. We minimize it, and that's why it's important early on to be taught those kinds of things. I think in early sobriety, because again, when you're dealing and then it just gets better and better over time so that when we do have this stuff of life that's coming up, raising kids or work or whatever, it creates a lot of anxiety and overwhelm for any of us really. But if you can generate the peace and serenity inside of yourself and that climb to the mountain for that, spirituality isn't really going to do that for you. You can do it. It's still going to be fun. You're still going to have pretty spiritual experience. It's going to be a spiritual experience, but it doesn't really fill that hole in your soul completely. It's a cool thing, but then we have to be able to do that for ourselves in order for it to be a lasting thing.

Kelley (18:15):

Yes. And I think that something that I needed to practice was I was such a runner, so anytime anything got bad, I would be like, oh, I got to get out of here. I got to move. I've got to change jobs, whatever it might be in thinking that my situation would get better and it would temporarily, and then I would come back to whatever it was I left and all these tools that I had gained, whether it was a spiritual experience or a physical experience or whatever it might be, it was only a matter of time that I was back in the trenches of feeling like shit. So I like this way better, and certainly even I am not as active in AA anymore, but even when I say to my family, I'm going to go to a meeting, they're like, are you okay? Do you feel like you're going to drink? No, I just need to pause and collect myself and connect with other sober people because we get out of routine. Life happens, and sometimes it's not as much of a priority because something else takes precedence to it, but it is, it's something that, it's a daily practice. We don't just get sober and by stopping drinking, it's like we need to do the work day in and day out.

Shelby (19:43):

Yeah, no, I always say sobriety is only the beginning. The workers really comes so much after that with the emotional sobriety work, which is what we're really talking about. And then that's an evolution of in and of itself. So as we continue down the path and we're starting to learn more about our own ourselves, and truly what we're talking about too is emotional regulation. And I'm not as active in AA anymore either. I love the program. I still recommend it, especially in the beginning. I think it's really, really important. Not against it, I would go if I need, but I also do recovery work every day all the time. And so I think it's really, really important for us to start to layer on other things. So we need good therapy. For example, I did really great therapy, EMDR work in my beginnings so I could clear out a lot of that past trauma and heal my brain.

(20:31):

We need, I used a lot of complimentary medicine like reiki and acupuncture and just other wellness strategies, learning about nutrition and supplementation. We have a layer on all these other tools and become kind of the fabric of our being, of our recovery being to help us thrive in long-term recovery. So that's what it takes. And even people who go to, I mean whatever, AA might be the best thing in the world for you. And that's totally cool. Like I said, I still love it. And even if you just do that every single day, that might be all you need. But I find that most people I know, even if they're still doing that, I get to some point in that five year range, I think, or sometimes longer. For me, it was longer. I needed a lot of, sometimes swiftly, sometimes slowly, they realize they needed more than that. They needed more than 12 steps. They needed the things we're talking

Kelley (21:30):

About. Right. Well, I needed to learn that too, because I felt like if I was going to three meetings a week and talking to my sponsor and working the steps, and this went back to my perfectionism, then I'm a good aa. And then life got busy and the kids were getting busier and I wasn't able to go to as many meetings. And then I felt like, oh gosh, I'm so bad at aa. And it was like, but wait a second. There are all these other things that are complimentary and going to meetings is another sense of support as well as, oh, these 10 other things that you're doing.

Shelby (22:07):

Yeah, exactly. And I just think everybody's so different, and also our ages and stages are different, right, absolutely. I mean, depending on what's going on with you. My kids were little. I had three kids in four years, so it was very busy. My husband worked a huge job, so I was the primary caregiver and I was working for a little bit in the beginning and then I stopped because I was home. I had too many kids and we couldn't afford the daycare, and that was a very busy time. It's so taxing. You're just physically so tired, I feel like. And I just didn't have a lot of the resources as far as energy was concerned to do much more than just serve my family, make the dinner, provide for the kids, which was wonderful. I mean, I love every single minute of it, but most of it really grateful.

(23:01):

Really grateful. I had that time. And so there wasn't a lot of room for pursuit of professional things for me, or it was a lot more of I'm supporting my husband's pursuit of his professional things, or I'm supporting my kids in their school and their sports and all that. And I slowly with time, I was able to do that. So the emotional tax of having little kids wasn't really too bad. I mean, there was some stuff that went on. I felt it was a little bit more of just a physical nature of just the running around, the dealing with their emotions. And then for me anyway, as they get older in their teen years, which was very challenging for us, we had a lot of different things going on. Then we had covid on top of it when they were still in high school, and it was just a lot.

(23:50):

And that to me was, even though I'd been sober for a super long time, by then, I was so challenged in my emotional sobriety then to do more and need more work on myself kind of hit me a brick. So age and stage I think is a big part of this. What we need at one point, what we need at another are different. So in marriage too, if you are married or if you're with a partner that ages and stages too, and if they're going through a tough time and you're kind of like, come on, let's go. You're trying to pull them along. You're pretty well, but they're not, and you're waiting or something goes on and there's a conflict, and that can create a lot of feelings. So then we're just kind of left with what do we do with it and what do we do with it as sober people? Even like I said, even if you've been sober a long time, we can make ourselves not well or actively in addiction with other things. For me, it was food. So I started using food as a really inappropriate resource for coping. They created a lot of other problems. It was never my thing before, but it became my thing because it's socially acceptable, it's easily readily available, and it feels good for hot second.

Kelley (25:15):

Well, addiction is, addiction is addiction. The connection between for me was the eating disorder was my first addiction in my teen years. And it is, it's like I have a hyper tendency to when something feels good, I want a lot of it. So whether it's good for you or bad for you, I want it. So it does. And then we talk about cross addiction, so we have to keep our brains in check. It is a brain disease.

Shelby (25:50):

We really do. And cross addiction is such an interesting phrase. It's not one that I actually keep top of mind, but it's what it is. It's true. We do need to be aware because like you said, my natural way, and I'm very aware of this and I feel like I try to teach other people about this both in therapy and in my coaching work or whatever I'm doing, is to kind of figure that out for yourself, whether I'm working with another person in recovery or not, whatever, we all have stuff. So you got to figure out what your natural way is. For me, and I think as humans, as human beings, our natural way is very self-centered. Just the way God made us. I think we are just naturally self-centered human beings who want what we want and we want to feel better. We want to get what we want.

(26:45):

And so a lot of times we will do whatever it takes to do that. And so when you are in an active recovery, you will look for the same thing because my natural way is to get out, get away, get rid of those feelings, escape it, and so I'm going to look for the next best thing that's going to help me do that. I'm not going to pick up a drink or a drug that's just not going to happen for me. And so I will look for the next thing and that's going to give me the dopamine hit that's necessary for me to get out of that thing. Right?

Kelley (27:14):

Yeah. And it makes you feel the similar feelings after the binge is over or after. If somebody restricts, it's that shame and guilt and I mean, it's so similar to alcohol or drug addiction. It's the feelings associated with it for the chase and the after effects.

Shelby (27:36):

Yeah, I mean it could be shopping or sex or whatever the thing is. Yeah, it's definitely the chase. It was interesting that you mentioned that I was working with a young client who I loved and adored who was a heroin addict, pretty young in her twenties, but she was a chronic relapser. I mean, just couldn't get it. Lots of rehabs, chronic relapser and super smart went to college, but that didn't last because of her addiction. Anyway, I remember her telling me we were doing EMDR R and really working, and I'm like, okay. I was super invested and ready to, and I believe she was too, but she would say things like, I just know I'm going to do it again when I do this again, where am I going to be in life so that I don't have to end up in rehab or end up in a halfway?

(28:35):

So she would say things like, I just want to get this degree so I can get a job and have my own apartment or house or whatever so I don't have to go back to my parents. And I'm like, that's not actually how that works. But the very logical way of being able to logically work through that just was astounding to me. I was like, God. And I kept thinking, it's insane. I mean, if one way it's not in our own head, we she believed that. And I would've be like, girl, your track record already shows you that is not how that's going to

Kelley (29:08):

Go.

Shelby (29:09):

But my other point was she would, so we were using a MDR R one time and we were stuck a little, so I kind of reversed it with Popkey talks about this reverse way of using it. What's good about getting high or what's good about using drugs, being an addict. And so she talked about that. She described that whole one thing. She is, it is the finding it. She's like, it's not even really the using anymore. She had so much experience. It was the calling the drug dealer, finding who I could get it from, driving there seeking. I'm like, oh my gosh. And I've been out of the world for a while I guess.

(29:52):

But wow, her painting the picture even for me made me be able to insert that into other things. For me, it's like, Ooh, I can be so regimented about my food. I mean, I struggle with food. That was a big part of my story when I was younger. I was so regimented. And then I've had different times in my recovery where I'm weighing and measuring and planning and making counting macros and doing all the things for fitness reasons. But I started was so regimented at home that when I would leave my home became this thrill. I actually worked on this. I went back to therapy at one point to work on this in the MDR because I was like, when I get in my car was I was like, what can I get? Where can I go? I'm like, oh, I can get a Chick-fil-A milkshake. I could go to Panera Bread and get that cookie. I'm like, oh my God, that is sick.

Kelley (30:53):

Other people don't think like that.

Shelby (30:56):

I relate. I don't really know. I mean, thank you. I don't really know that maybe, but that's what happens for me.

Kelley (31:05):

Totally.

Shelby (31:06):

And it actually still can very easily. Oh yeah. When I'm not in a great space, when I haven't taken care of those other

Kelley (31:13):

Things well, and we eliminate drugs and alcohol in sobriety and recovery. We don't eliminate food. We have to learn how to have a relationship with food and exercise.

Shelby (31:28):

Exactly.

Kelley (31:29):

I think that's a little harder.

Shelby (31:31):

Yeah, it's so true. Because we all have to eat. We have to eat to live. And problems with food is hard. It is just part of it. And there's definitely ways to work on that and become more, and I've seen the progress in my own life too, with over time and continued work. I don't automatically go into those old pattern at the first sign of an issue, my husband or something. I'm not going to automatically be like, oh my God, I have to start doing this. That's not really my first way anymore. It's more subtle. Sometimes it creeps in, but there's a lot more grace for myself, and I've seen that happen a lot for myself. And I dunno if you can relate to that, but I share sometimes too. I dunno if Rachel Hall,

(32:19):

She is pretty famous. She talks about, I dunno if it was in one of her books or where I heard it, but when she was going through her divorce, and it was just a really tough time, but she was in a horrible time. But she had these very specific routines in her life similar to what we're talking about. A lot of it evolved around nutrition, some of it around movement. And she had commitments to herself. And she talked about how I don't ever break my commitments. And that's what we're talking about here, and this is how we retrain our brain. We retrain the neuropathways in our brain. This is not me saying this, this is science with neuroscience tells us we can retrain the neuro pathways in our brain by consistently doing the same thing over and over and over again. And then that teaches our brains to know they can trust us.

(33:00):

So Kelly consistently does what she says she's going to do every time. So that then when she goes to make a change in a routine, like, oh, well now I decided I want to wake up a half an hour earlier because I want to add this to my routine. Your brain's kind of like, yeah, that's cool. She's going to do that. She talked about that and her commitment was that she would move her body 30 minutes a day. She just didn't break it. And she was in times where she would get home late after times with her friends or whatever and get on the treadmill, and she still had to do it.

(33:36):

So because of that, she had that in her mind. But she was in this phase of life. And maybe you've had a time like this where you can share about it. I know I have, during that time, I just talked about with my kids where she was so tired. She used that word. She was just so tired to her bone that not exhausted the time that we're just like, oh my God, I'm so tired. It was like everything was just depleted and she just didn't have anything. But she would go to the gym anyway, and she would show up there and just lay on the mat and stretch, or that's what I did. Or I'd get on the treadmill and walk at 3.0 because I didn't want to break those commitments to myself. But I had to give myself a lot of grace to say, this is all I have, so I'm going to still do a thing. It's just not going to look like what it normally would look like. And that's okay.

Kelley (34:30):

And I think that that's good grace to have because I think not, I know from other people who are not in recovery that that can seem very rigid. And sometimes I have been very rigid in my routines too, and not knowing when to give myself a break. So I think making the commitment to self, but then also making accommodations based on where you are is so important. And to say, it's okay if I don't do this today. The world is not going to end. Maybe I need to crawl in bed instead.

Shelby (35:08):

Right. I mean, I do think it is a fine line.

Kelley (35:12):

It's a fine line.

Shelby (35:13):

It's a fine line because I come from probably similar to you, just like a longstanding people and belief system around we work hard and that's important, and that's a value of ours. We are not lazy. And so I had to learn that rest is productive. So that's another thing. Rest is actually productive. But there's a way to do what I just said. You can still honor and respect yourself by saying, I do these things every day, but in certain periods they just might look a little different. I go slower or I do it for less time, or whatever it is. And because we don't want to get into another point where we're like, this is I think what the world tells us right now. The world says a lot like, oh, you don't have to do, you don't that it's fine. You should give yourself, forgive yourself. You don't have whatever. And that can be a slippery slip too, right? Then you can slip into Now we just don't honor our values at all. Yeah,

Kelley (36:16):

I can have that extra large milkshake. I deserve it because it's

Shelby (36:23):

Right. I mean, we got to check ourselves. Right, exactly. I sober people. I'm like, I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't at use drugs. So for me, sometimes I'm like, yeah, I am going to eat the ice cream. I just really, I need a thing.

Kelley (36:41):

You need some vice. I know. But

Shelby (36:43):

It's when the thing becomes your coping mechanism. We have to check in with that. Is this really a healthy coping mechanism? So I think when we're asking ourselves those good questions, like today, is this okay? Yes. But now it's three weeks later and we're still doing this every day. Is this really helping me? Or we reversed into hurting? And so being able to check in with us is really important.

Kelley (37:09):

A lot of checking in,

Shelby (37:11):

Right?

Kelley (37:12):

Pulse check.

Shelby (37:16):

I was just talking about that with a client before, earlier this morning about self-awareness and how that's a lengthy process. It takes a long time to learn and practice some of these skills to help us become more.

Kelley (37:29):

Yeah. And some of my clients too will say, this is so hard. Was I better off not knowing? I'm like, well, avoidance and denial. Yeah, those are, it's sometimes coping mechanisms, but usually not. Don't last, can't last very long.

Shelby (37:47):

Yeah. And we all have people in our life, either family or friends or even coworkers or whatever, where they're safe enough that we can practice some of these things. We can practice asking for what we need or when we are discerning something in our environment that someone's expressing something or we are getting activated by someone else's feelings or things. So we can check in, we can say, Hey, I noticed that you're not really your best self today. Or you seem like you're a little angry or something. Did I do something to create that? It is a great opportunity for us to check in with ourselves by using other people to help validate our experience now. And sometimes it might be they might be like, well, yeah, earlier you said blah, blah, blah, and that really hurt my feelings. And so then now you've created an opportunity though to follow up with that and be like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I didn't realize that. And now you can talk about it. Right? So either way, either you get that, no, it's not about you at all.

Kelley (38:57):

I'm

Shelby (38:58):

Frustrated with work or we just got this bill for this thing and I don't have the money to pay it. Or you get, yeah, you did. Here's what it is, and now we can talk about it.

Kelley (39:10):

Yeah. Well, those are healthy. That's healthy communication in relationships, which not everybody has those and they're trying to practice it.

Shelby (39:21):

We're trying to practice it. And it does take time. And I do think when you're earlier on in your journey and recovery, you're so used to functioning at a level that's very self-centered, that's not focused on emotional regulation, that we have a lot to learn and grow. And then also when you're in relation with other people, I dunno about you, one of my kids, I still feel like these are my children. I raise them, but they don't belong to me. They're their own people and each of them is their own. So I have to learn them to learn who they are, learn how they like to be loved, learn how they're going to respond best. And so that is also a really good classroom for learning about yourself so that you can kind of realize, oh wow, my way of doing things isn't going to be effective in this situation. What would be better? Look at

Kelley (40:24):

All these opportunities. We have to practice

Shelby (40:26):

So many. We should all be much more elevated than we are or actualized. Alright. Well, tell us a little bit about your practice. I love the name of your practice. You can share that. Thank you. And what you're up to and all the fun things you're doing in your business.

Kelley (40:49):

So I own serendipitous psychotherapy, and after Covid, I moved from downtown Chicago to my home office on Virtual Zoom, which has been great because there are a lot more people throughout the Chicagoland area that I can see. And even in different parts of Illinois. And I wrote an Autobiography of Survival called myself, and I published that in 2017. My husband is an actor, so we produced a short film called Gray Area that people can see for free on YouTube that is an adaptation of a piece of the book. And I use that film to travel around the country and educate communities about women's mental health and alcohol abuse, and just do a lot of TV and media appearances to educate the general public. I call it my public service about mental health and wellness. And that's certainly a labor of love to break stigmas and increase education around taboo topics and helping people to live their best life. I

Shelby (42:08):

Love that. And I'm so thankful for you and your husband, obviously, for creating these opportunities to spread the message of hope. That is what we do when we recover out loud. Not everybody's doing that and wants to do that, and it's fair. It's totally fine. But when we do, we bring hope to other people who really need it, whether you're already in recovery and you're struggling and you just need help finding your way, or you're still trying to figure it out, how do I get sober? Do I want to be sober? Wherever you are in your journey with that, we all need hope to grasp on. We need something to clinging to. And yeah, whenever we're doing work in the community to talk about mental health, to bring light to it, to just normalize it, I always say I'm in the business of normalizing not drinking, that it's not actually a prerequisite for college.

(43:03):

It's not a prerequisite for life. Not everybody drinks. I didn't know that when I was out there. I just thought everybody was, I thought that was weird. I'm like, what do you mean that there's actually people that just don't drink? They don't like it. They're not into it. That's a real thing. And that can be fine and fun too. So the more the messaging gets out, the more people continuously see it, because we all have this in our lives. We all have it. Whether it looks like the mental health side, whether it's more of a substance use side, we all have it around us, and we're going to encounter it in some form, often multiple forms. So the more armor we have, the more tools that we have, the more empathy and compassion we have for people's struggles, the better off other people are and the better off the world will be. They'll know everyone gets depressed. Sometimes we all get overwhelmed at times. Sometimes. Sometimes it becomes a clinical issue. What do we do? It's

Kelley (44:00):

Just well, and I think also in alignment to hope so that I don't feel so alone and not me. I mean anybody. We think that we're unique in our experiences or our feelings or our thoughts. And just as I hope people heard today, there were a lot of things that you and I related to with one another that people don't normally talk like that. Talking about the obsession of food or whatever it might be. So to say, oh my gosh, me too. Tell me about that. It makes me feel less alone, and I want to know how you are able to work through that so that maybe I can learn how to work through that. What was helpful for me,

Shelby (44:43):

As you do too, I'm sure we need to encourage everybody to make sure you're doing that and you're sharing your story. And what's safe spaces for you. Not everybody deserves to hear our whole story, all of the parts of it. We can't share that with all people or everywhere because we don't know that they're going to protect that. Not everybody deserves that, but we can. I think everybody can receive and most anybody can share and in general ways about some of these concepts. I remember a time when I felt really overwhelmed or when I felt like I was being controlled by food. We don't even have to get into the nitty gritties of our stories to make it very relatable and palatable to the general public. And I think when we do that, you're right, most people light bulbs are going off and they're like, huh, maybe that's the first time they've ever heard anybody ever share that Maybe they've lived in a community or in a space or even a church environment or a school where you just really didn't get below the surface ever. People didn't really share about the real stuff of life that's really happening.

Kelley (45:51):

And

Shelby (45:51):

So the more we do that, I just think the better it is for people to see like, yeah, look at that woman. She's the mom of these four kids. She's out here killing it at the PTA meetings, and she's working and she's traveling, and she's got her craft together. She must be making millions of dollars. She's totally amazing. She's perfect until they hear you say like, wow, no, I struggled with this. And then

Kelley (46:18):

They're

Shelby (46:18):

Like, oh, okay. So both things can be true at the same

Kelley (46:22):

Time. Absolutely. Amen.

Shelby (46:25):

So Kelly, thanks so much for your time. Really appreciate you. Where would you like people to reach out to you if they want to get ahold of you?

Kelley (46:31):

Sure. So they can go directly to my website. It's Kelly, K-E-L-L-E-Y, Kiley, K-I-T-L-E y.com.

Shelby (46:40):

Perfect. I'll link to that below in the show notes, and I look forward to continuing to follow your journey, and I hope our paths crossed again sometime soon.

Kelley (46:49):

Thank you so much. You're welcome.