Unlock Sobriety: Connect, Heal, Love w/Patti

In this powerful episode of Confident Sober Women, host Shelby interviews Patti Clark, author of Recovery Road Trip and a woman whose journey to sobriety and emotional healing has inspired countless others. Patti’s story takes us through her early years in a dysfunctional family, struggling with addiction, and ultimately finding the path to recovery. With honesty and wisdom, Patti reveals how she overcame trauma, addiction, and the challenges of sustaining long-term sobriety.

Highlights:

• Early Life Struggles: Patti shares the impact of growing up in an alcoholic family, which led to her own battle with addiction at a young age.
• Life-Changing Choices: From working in Alaska’s high-stakes environment to a transformative moment of clarity, Patti chose a new path.
• Connection as the Key to Recovery: Patti emphasizes the power of connection over isolation in achieving and sustaining sobriety. This episode highlights the importance of finding community and choosing the right support system, whether through 12-step groups, alternatives like She Recovers, or other modern recovery groups.
• Emotional Sobriety & Self-Love: Patti speaks about the deeper work that follows initial sobriety, addressing emotional regulation and the need for self-love—crucial for long-term success in recovery.
• Preventing Relapse: Hear insights from Patti’s research on why women relapse and the essential practices that help sustain sobriety. She shares her experience of stepping away from her program, the dangers of complacency, and the importance of maintaining a support network.

Top Takeaways:

1. Embrace Connection: Sobriety thrives in community. Whether through 12-step, therapy, or other recovery groups, staying connected to others is vital for long-term recovery.
2. Do the Deeper Work: Healing doesn’t stop at sobriety. Engage in practices like journaling, creative expression, and neurofeedback for trauma to deepen your recovery.
3. Micro-Changes Lead to Transformation: Small, consistent actions—routine, emotional awareness, and self-care—build a fulfilling, sober life.

Tune in to this episode and be sure to share with a friend and leave a review in your platform if you are liking what you hear in the show. Whether you’re in early recovery or years along, Patti’s wisdom and insights are sure to inspire you to strengthen your own journey.

Visit Patti's website www.patticlark.or

Transcript

Well, hey there, Patty. Thank you so much for joining me today for the Confident Sober Women podcast. I'm so excited to hear your story and share it with the community. So I want to turn the mic over to you and let you share a little bit more about it. And then we're going to chat. 

Patti: Awesome. Thanks so much, Shelby.

Thanks for having me and giving me the opportunity to share with your community. That's awesome. Um, so while I have to go way back, um, For my, for my story, because my story really did begin when I was a kid. Um, I grew up in an alcoholic family, very dysfunctional. Um, my mother died of alcoholism when I was 16.

Um, and my father was also drinking, but, you know, he looked good. He was a successful businessman. So he was a, um, successful alcoholic. Is, is that a, um, yeah, that, that doesn't really work. Um, an oxymoron, as they say. Um, and so the, the pain and the [00:01:00] trauma was so, um, was so immense growing up that it is really, um, obvious that I would be drinking and using early on, which I did.

I was 13 when I first got drunk and, um, It really was every single drunk that I had was, um, was blackout right from the beginning. Um, and even at, even at 13, 14, um, I grew up in the 60s and 70s in San Francisco. So there was lots of drugs around and there was just about anything that we wanted. Everything was available at my high school.

And so I was doing speed by the time I was 14. We were all getting high, um, on with, with weed. a lot and there was a lot of acid around. I mean, I was doing everything. I really went crazy. And once my mother had died, I was, um, just out of control, [00:02:00] really out of control. Um, and I, uh, you know, really for, for, um, pure grace, I was able to make it through four years of university and did okay.

I was, uh, academically I, I can do all right. And I was able to mask a lot of things. And, and. Move okay through that world. And then I ended up in Alaska as a bartender, you know, talk about a kid in the candy shop when I finished, uh, my, when I finished my BA and I really went, I spiraled And, um, in Alaska, it was a dangerous place to be during the, um, the time of the oil pipeline.

And with the fisheries, there was a lot of money. There was a lot of cocaine and there weren't a lot of women. So it was, it looked really fun on the outside. It was kind of like, yeah, bright and shiny fun. And inside I was killing myself. Um, and then [00:03:00] I had a wonderful experience happen with, um, that was truly a God moment where Two things simultaneously happened within the same week.

I was, I was teaching, um, at an alternative high school during the day and I was bartending at night and, um, I got a job offer, a full time job offer at the, um, alternative high school. I got the opportunity to, or I had the opportunity to buy a condominium and they were like no interest loans in Alaska because the oil money at that time was crazy.

And that same week I got a, I got a, um, mail, uh, Aerogram. I don't know if you remember those, but, um, Aerogram, um, uh, piece of mail, um, no computers. So mail, um, from my boyfriend then saying, meet me in Bali and let's go travel. And so I literally had this crossroad and I was drinking and [00:04:00] using a lot. So it certainly wasn't this sort of sober meditative moment, but I sat out on a log and looked out at the water and just thought, Oh my God, what am I going to do?

What do I do? Crying, really feeling crazy. And I heard this very quiet, still voice say, if you stay here and continue this, you will die, leave. And I did. So I traveled with my boyfriend then, who is my husband now. And, um, we traveled for about three and a half years through Asia. And when I got back, we were living in And, um, I'll try and keep this short because it's a long story.

Um, I went to a, um, I went to an astrologer and in Oregon and the astrologer was looking at my chart and she said, This is interesting over here. Um, is there addiction in your family? And I said, yeah, [00:05:00] my mother died of alcoholism when I was 16 and she said, Oh, you know, that's too bad, but that doesn't quite explain this part.

And I said, yeah, well, my father's still alive and he's still drinks as well, but he's yeah, but he's okay. And then she said, yeah, but this part here. And I said, well, my sister's actually, um, an alcoholic and in recovery though. And she said, Oh, great. And then she just stopped and looked at me and said, Patty, are you an alcoholic just like that?

And I just burst into tears and we were moving that day to Arizona. I got in the car and cried for several hours driving from Oregon to Arizona. And the next day I went to my first AA meeting. Actually, I'd gone to one meeting before with my sister, but I had only gone to support her. So I was only supporting her when she brought me, hoping it would rub off.

And, um, I got sober in Tucson, Arizona in 1988, which was two days before my [00:06:00] 30th birthday. And I was getting sober, um, for all the right reasons. You know, my husband and I had, they had almost separated several times because of my drinking. We had been talking about having kids and I said, I would not be my mother.

And so I wanted to be a good sober mother. And, um, you know, I just, I, I wanted to, you know, I wanted to, to do better, to be better. And so I got sober and, um, lots of stories in there, but I will say I was clean and sober for 12 years. We moved to, um, New Zealand where I am now. Um, and they didn't do a recovery the way that we did it in, um, Arizona.

And in Arizona, I had a really beautiful, lovely, strong, um, community of women that was amazing. It was, you know, at that point in the [00:07:00] 80s, Tucson was the recovery capital of the U. S. Um, with so many rehab facilities and just so much sobriety and So we got here and it wasn't the same. There were very, very few women in, um, in, in recovery.

Um, and it was still very, very young. It was in its nascent period and there were, you know, not to be horrible, but there were just a lot of really pedantic Patriarchal older men in 12 step and I, it wasn't my tribe, man. It was not my community. And it didn't take long before I quit going to meetings and didn't have a recovery community.

So it wasn't only the meetings. It was the community. That's, that's, that's my story. I needed that connection. I needed community. And so I quit going to [00:08:00] meetings and it wasn't long before I, I thought, Oh, I'm fine. I'm fine. I've read, I've read the books. I've done so much therapy and I know the drill. So I.

Uh, started drinking again and it was, you know, very controlled at first. I would have a glass of wine occasionally and all of the, I had, um, two kids by them and my kids were in school. That was another piece is that I had given birth to two beautiful boys, raised them, they were now in primary school and it was like, Oh, now what?

You know, I'd like that. My reason, that's why I was sort of gone and all the other mothers got together after school and drank. And so I just sort of slipped into that. And interesting part is I would, I would still read the literature. I would still, you know, say the third step prayer from, from AA and I drank doing it anyway [00:09:00] to make a, um, it's already long, but less long story.

Um, I was out in the drinking world for, um, 13 years. And, um, by the grace of God, I didn't kill anybody and I didn't do anything to, um, destroy myself or my relationships. Um, but. Finally, in 2014, I just looked in the mirror and said, I don't like you drunk. I don't like you when you're drinking. And so I got sober again and I, um, I got sober on my own at first with, um, on with, there wasn't even, you know, zoom and that stuff yet in 2014.

So I was on, um, an email. Meeting and when I went back to the states to visit my sister, I'd go to meetings with her, but I, I was looking for something here and another God moment. I was in a coffee shop with my son and this guy walked in that I recognized from, [00:10:00] meetings way back when here and a woman walked in next to him and I thought oh she is cool looking she had this wavy really cool hair and this flowing clothes and they sat down with their coffee and I just got up and I said I don't know if you remember me I used to go to meetings with you.

And he said, well, yeah, I remember you Patty. How are you? It's been a long time. And I said, I'm good. I'm good. Um, but I don't really want to talk to you. I want to talk to you. And I introduced myself to Rosie and said, are you in recovery? And she said, yeah, I am. And I said, um, I really need a women's meeting.

And she said, let's start with, and we started a meeting here and that was in 2000. And I think by the time we started the meeting, it was 2015. And, um, it's still going strong. So that's my story up to them. 

Thank you so much for sharing all of that, Patty. I really appreciate it. And, you know, just particularly for the vulnerability and honesty, because that is truly how it [00:11:00] works, you know, that's how we're taught.

If you do come into the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous or another 12 step fellowship, that's generally what you're going to be taught that this is how it works, right? We share the message of hope with other people who are sick and suffering. Hopefully they, it infiltrates their hearts and minds and once makes them want to, um, get and stay sober.

And, and that's what I like to do here too. So, um, so it sounds like you, you know, had a long history with your own family of origin and then also just throughout your own addiction and with your, you know, trying to maintain your marriage and raise kids. And I understand that I have three young adult children now too, and I'm also married and.

You know, it's a lot to manage just just just regularly, you know, just as a whatever regular person um, I always say or I was taught early on and I got sober as well and not everybody does and that's that's okay. But I was also taught that Um, [00:12:00] um, I totally lost my train of thought.

Patti: What, what I, what I really find so important, there's a, there's a, my favorite, my very favorite quote is by Johan Hari and, um, he, he wrote Chasing the Scream. I don't know if you, if you know that book, but yeah, he's a really, really like him and his, uh, the, the quote is, um, the opposite of addiction is not sobriety.

The opposite of addiction is connection. Right. And to me, that is just vital information because that's what happened with me. When I got away, From people and, and I agree with you, not everybody gets clean and sober in a 12 step program. And that's fine. 12 step absolutely doesn't work for a lot of people.

When I came here, it didn't work for me. And that's why I went out again and I had to find more. And I've, I've found lots of different permutations, [00:13:00] which is wonderful, but the essence, the core is that connection. And without that connection, it doesn't work. We don't feel seen. We don't feel supported. We, you know, and if you don't have it, that support of your, of your, um, of being clean, of being sober, if you don't have it in your family, if you don't have it in those closest friends, There, there, there isn't that scaffolding for holding you and, and that's essential.

And that's what I find in 12 step rooms. Although when Rosie and I started the meetings, we went to NA because a lot, we found a lot of that AA, um, just closed mindedness in our community problematic. And what we wanted, basically we put it under the flag of NA, but we wanted people to come in with any addiction.

That's one of the, one of the things that I really struggle with when I was in an [00:14:00] AA group and I'd be talking about using other drugs and they'd say, Oh, no, no, no. If you want to talk about your drug use, you have to go to N. A. or you have to go to, you know, one of the other Myriad programs. And if you want to talk about your shopping addiction, then you need to go to debtors anonymous, or you need to go here.

Or if you want to talk about your eating addiction, then you go to OA. And what Rosie and I were talking about is let's start a program where you can walk in with absolutely any addiction and say, I'm an addict. Because that's what it is. We are all addicts looking for something to fill that hole. And it doesn't matter what substance or what behavior you choose.

Addiction is addiction is addiction. And we are looking for something to take care of us when we're feeling that insanity. 

Uh, I totally agree with that. And you know, I usually say Um, what we're trying to do now in long term [00:15:00] recovery and with all of this, you know, the work that we're doing and learning how to thrive and, and, and build emotional sobriety is we're trying to build and create lives that we don't want to escape from.

You know, that is the blessing that we get to have, um, when we get in stays over for a long time and we, and we show up and do the work that you mentioned, you know, you've had a lot of therapy. I totally get that. I've done a ton of therapy myself. I'm also a mental health therapist. And so I work, you know, kind of directly with.

The mental health community and the recovery community every single day. But, you know, it's, it's an inside job. You know, we have to do that inside work, um, in order to get the, get the transformation that we're looking for to thrive in long term recovery and to maintain that, you know, I mean, the big one talks about, you know, like, can we maintain sobriety under any and all conditions, you know, and I, I feel like that is true.

Like, you know, this is the acid test. This is the. You know, when those big things come at you, you know, when your husband's like coming at you and you're like, Whoa, and [00:16:00] like, you, you have a disagreement or your kid has, you know, gets kicked out of school or you now you're hit with a. A health thing, you know, can we stay sober under any and all conditions?

And, um, yes, we can, you know, when we are filled with. The right stuff and we have that community around us. I agree with you. And one of the things that I always find fascinating is when I people do come into my world and they're like, oh, I tried, you know, it didn't work for me and blah, blah, blah. And, and I, and I get it.

Like, I'm, I'm not a big, like, you know, 12 step, you know, thumper or try to convince anybody, but I also do believe that it can work for any and all people. Um, if we, you know, just open our hearts and minds, But what happens a lot of times is You know, you have to become willing to, um, hear the hard stuff, right?

They get to be going to like have somebody, you know, make maybe a judge, what you believe is a judgment, but they're, what they're truly trying to do is say like, Hey, this is what [00:17:00] we did. And the people who before us came before us did, and this is how we stayed sober. And yeah, they say, you know, we're not here to make friends.

We're in the business of saving lives. And I, and I totally agree with that. And so, but what I say to them all the time is if you're still struggling to stay sober, I would always recommend that you try to go to a 12 step fellowship first, because building a community, like you mentioned, sober people doing sober things is how it works, right?

You don't have to like all the principles or everything, the dogma, or even all the people there, you know, like they say in the big book says like, this is the people who would normally not mix. You know, but you do need to find a group of people because generally speaking for most of us There we don't have that.

We don't have people in our lives that are sober doing sober things, you know, exactly Who are drinking? And doing exactly things. And so we need to be around people who can come around us and laugh and be silly and go do fun things without substances. And so the only, [00:18:00] where the only place in my world so far, where you can find that is in 12 step and in the beginning of your journey, so important.

You don't have to stay there forever or keep going, but in the beginning, you need to build up a community around you. Um, 

Patti: exactly. Yeah, exactly. And, and the, um, the, just real quick, I want to add, because if there are people listening that are saying I've tried and I haven't, I haven't felt it, there are a lot of meetings go to different meetings, you know, wait until you find your tribe because you will, you will.

And I think, and maybe 12 step isn't for everyone. I totally agree, but there are a lot of 12 step meetings. So, you know, it in N a, your drug of choice, Was alcohol. Cool. You might find it there or an all women's meeting or, you know, an all men's meeting or whatever it is, finding that group where you resonate because connection is key.

Yeah. And that could be, you know, now these days we have [00:19:00] all of this modern recovery. So we have all of these other kinds of groups now, like I have a clinical client in my, in my private practice who, you know, And like, she, she just didn't connect at all with 12 step. And I, so I made some suggestions and one of them was, you know, she recovers and she joined the, she recovers community.

And now she goes to meetings every day there. They are like loving her up. She's feeling it all. Like, and I'm like, yes, great. This is amazing. Like that's, that's wonderful. You found people that you can connect with where you can be honest. And show up and learn how to do the things right. And so that could be like Laura McGowan's, you know, we're the luckiest or the luckiest club, you know, or sober sis, you know, like she's got a whole community too.

So there's a variety of ways to do that. Absolutely. But what we really want to do is make those tiny micro changes over time. Like we learn to follow directions, right? Like, I don't know about you, but for me, when I got sober, you know, my sponsor told me things like, you know, like you need to call me every day.

Uh, we need [00:20:00] to like start getting up at the same time every day. I had to learn to like brush my teeth twice a day and feed myself properly and like not exercise for three hours a day. And, you know, like. I had to learn how to, um, do proper skincare, like just things that adults do, you know, I just wasn't really clued into a lot of these life skills, you know, and so with these tiny micro changes that we make over time through really healthy habit formation leads to this big transformation.

And a lot of that is our thinking patterns and like the way we view ourselves and also others and, um, how we kind of generally feel in the world. Right. Yeah. I don't know how that was for you, but for me, those thinking patterns, and that's what I teach a ton. I like changing and eliminating your negative thinking patterns because that's where, that's where the big transformation is going to come.

When we start to catch ourselves and we start to learn, we take an inventory of what our thinking patterns are. And then we learn how to change them into a much more, [00:21:00] um, acceptable, like more rational way. Um, we get this big transformation around emotional. Absolutely. 

Patti: Okay. Absolutely. I mean, that's massive.

And, and that once we've been sober for a while, and I know that a lot of the things that you talk about in, in your podcast is about people being sober for a while and then what that sort of, and then what moment and emotional sobriety is key. First, we have to get clean and sober. So the substances and that behavior is out of our body.

But then there's a whole life to create. And that's what you're talking about, those sort of micro changes, little bit by little bit, where we learn to embrace ourselves and, and love ourselves from the inside out, because, you know, I'm just speaking for myself, but for a lot of women that I've worked with, it's.

That's the challenge is learning to love ourselves because most of us didn't learn to do that. Especially [00:22:00] those of us raised in dysfunctional families where there wasn't that modeling. There wasn't that mirroring. We didn't get it mirrored back. We didn't get it modeled. We floundered. And so we learn, I mean, I love what the way that Gabor Mate describes it, that we learn to deal with the trauma of our life by taking care of ourselves.

And a lot of us did it through substances and it worked, you know, it worked really well. We learned to numb ourselves out from extreme pain. So the substance did its job when we were in that pain. We're still alive. We didn't decide to kill ourselves. We didn't decide to annihilate ourselves in one way or another until it got to that point with substances for some of us.

That's, that's the first thing is okay, that took care of us. But I love what you say is, but the point is to build a life that we don't want to escape [00:23:00] from. And so once we have that You know, our bodies, our minds are clean enough that we're not. in the midst of the insanity of the substance, then those little behaviors that we're learning, I love that you, you know, that your sponsor taught you about skincare and, you know, hygiene, you know, the things that seem like, well, duh, but for a lot of us, it wasn't, uh, we abandoned ourselves.

And so after we learn those things and we do, get to the point where, okay, I'm, I'm here. I'm, I'm healthy. And now what? And, and so really coming into that place of, okay, what's, what's the next piece? How do I thrive? In sobriety, 

exactly. And I find that in my, my experience with the women, hundreds of women that I've kind of encountered through therapy, my therapy practice, and also in [00:24:00] coaching and my course is that that really starts to happen.

Once we get in stays over for like, let's do a year or more like that 1 to 5 year mark is when a lot of this gigantic transformation starts to happen right because that's. Again, like that's as sober as you're ever going to be, but now, you know, a lot of that early sobriety stuff is being kind of taken care of, you know, if you have legal issues or, you know, family or marital stuff, like a lot of that kind of stuff is starting to really unfold and be taken care of.

And then you get to that A little bit later time and the fog is completely cleared and you're, and you're open minded and open hearted. And like suddenly, you know, those desires of your heart are starting to bubble up and, and you're being exposed to opportunities. I always say, you know, of things, maybe you want to start a business or a family or get out of this marriage or get in one or whatever you want, like whatever it is that you desire, you know, those, these opportunities are coming up for you and suddenly they seem possible because when you were, when you were drinking, you're either, You know, Barstool wishes, you know, [00:25:00] you're like, Oh, I'm going to run a marathon someday, or I'm going to do this or that.

And like, none of that's ever going to happen because you're just stuck in your own addiction. And so now like you're as sober as you're ever going to be. You've got a little bit of time under your belt. You started to learn how to just do the basic things. So it's, and then you're like, okay, well I want to do this thing or I want to create this thing.

So then it's like, well, what, how do I do that? And so a lot of that, where I find women come is like, I don't have the roadmap for that. Like, I don't know how, cause a lot of it revolves around confidence and like self love and like how do I believe in myself enough and believe that I'm good enough that I'm, I am okay as I am.

I have no idea what that sounds like. I feel like like people say things can be a lot harder than, than to be able to move 

Patti: forward with this dream. Right. 

And so exactly. That takes a lot of vigilance and study and care. and over time again we start to increase it and eventually we do learn how to kind of like a lot of it is like recognition of our emotions you know like if you did grow up in a dysfunctional family where feelings weren't really talked about or nobody really Kind of discuss that with you.

That can be a [00:26:00] huge thing. Like what are like, what are the feeling words, you know? And then like how does that come up in me? Like what does anger look like in me or sadness? And then once you start to get, you know, put words to those and then notice like well, when does that come up? Now you're building like this whole long list of um Of data about about yourself and you're starting to learn and then so then it becomes like, okay Well, how do I manage those big emotions, right?

So maybe you're parenting, you know You're a parent too like you're parenting and these kids have like big emotions too Like they're coming at you right or they're having a tantrum or they're teenagers and you're and you're kind of like, oh my gosh Not only am I trying to manage myself? Like how do I?

Stay well under any circumstances. Right. But you're also now trying to like, not kill that kid or not scream at that child, or not pick them up and wanna be like, okay, I want to shake you. You know, like there's, how do I do that? Yeah. You know? Um, and I don't know if you have any like, insight into your work around that, like that emotional regulation piece that's [00:27:00] like, that's where we get to next.

Like, okay, well then how do we 

Patti: Exactly, 

how do we begin to manage those emotions? 

Patti: Exactly. Um, great question. And that's, that is the essence, isn't it? And, um, I love the fact that, you know, right behind you, it says breathe because that's the first step in, in my, in my opinion, I used to run workshops for teenagers and sort of helping to teach that self regulation is a huge part.

And I have things that work for me that I talk about, but the first one is always pause. And breathe and, and, and take, you know, take a beat, take a beat. It's not that reaction. Um, for me, there are, um, I read a lot and there are so many experts out there. And so I eat a lot of, a lot of information as a piece of it.

Um, I have an incredibly fast, chaotic brain. And that was one of the first things that I had to deal with is learning to meditate. Learning [00:28:00] to get quiet. And to me, that's huge because that breathe and take a beat. And then when you can take a few more beats and back up and get quiet enough that there is a, um, a piece that you're operating from instead of, you know, Operating from chaos and we don't always have that that moment because if you're if we are dealing with kids and teenagers and there's stuff coming at us, there's not always that moment, but try and find that moment as long as everybody's safe.

Give yourself a timeout so you have a minute to have that moment to breathe. To have that moment where you're not reacting, you're choosing to act. And, and we do have that choice. We do now that we're clean and sober, we have that choice. We are not just, you know, knee jerk reacting to everything anymore.

So that's huge. And I, and [00:29:00] as I say to any, any woman in early sobriety, once you do get clean enough that you've got the capacity, go do your work. Find a therapist that you can work with and start uncovering those layers. Because the thing is with, with sobriety, what we, what we know once we're sober for a while is okay, now my body is clean and free of those chemicals.

But the reason I started drinking is still there that, that all that stuff, all that trauma that I pushed down and numbed out is still there. And I'm feeling it even more because I'm not numbing it out. So the first thing we have to do, everyone, you know, I don't care exactly how you do it, but you gotta go do your work.

You've got to uncover what's under there and, and clean it out. Otherwise we're just putting a Band Aid on a really dirty wound. We've cleaned out our system and now we need to uncover some [00:30:00] of the reasons that we were drinking or using almost to the point of death. To not feel because baby, once you're not drinking and using your feeling, you're feeling all of it.

And then if you have, you know, family members coming at you, it brings up all that shit that, that we tried to keep down. So not in my opinion, any addict can't raise a kid unless they've done some of their own work because we repeat patterns. We just do. It's not our fault. We're not bad people that we repeat patterns because that's what we learned.

So my, 

yeah, yeah. Like somebody has to be the cycle breaker, right? 

Patti: Yeah, absolutely. 

It's one of the other blessings of sobriety, right? Is that if you come from a family of two, three or four siblings or whatever, or whatever went on, like whatever trickled down to you, like when you do get in clean and sober, like you get the opportunity to [00:31:00] be like the one you get to be the one in the family.

I mean, maybe you're not, but like, maybe there's another one, but you get the chance to be like, okay, I'm going to get, Up and out. I'm going to get clean and sober. I'm going to change my thinking patterns. I'm gonna Work on my emotional regulation become less reactive and more responsive You said breathe and take a beat.

I love that I always say the three r's refrain reflect and then respond so like take a minute like and also like we learn things and and early recovery, like, you know, no is a complete sentence or no response is a response. These are the little tidbits that sound kind of annoying and like saying bumper stickers, but it's honestly the best, you know, cause those are the things that I remember.

Those are the little things you can grab onto and remember and be like. I can just not respond to this. Like, it's okay if I just take a breath, I can just see the text. I can just walk away. And then, you know what, I'm going to give myself a minute or 24 hours or whatever, or maybe consult with someone, maybe pray about it, just sit.

And then I might go back in, you know, we get [00:32:00] to do exactly. You know, we have those choices today, which is the blessing. And, you know, one of the things that we talked, you and I know you're, you're just particularly passionate about this too, is, you know, like life comes at you. Right. And so I know, you know, part of my story, and then I share a lot of the times that, you know, I was working hard.

I was doing all the things, and this was earlier on in my recovery journey. It's been kind of a while, but. You know, I was doing all the things I was really involved in, like in the recovery program and, and the things. And then, you know, slowly started to change a little bit. I mean, I changed for the better a lot.

And then I started to change for the worst a little bit because I was just overwhelmed, you know? I was, you know, it was really kind of grasping at straws for like, Oh, like how do I manage these children? And my husband's got this big job and I felt all alone. Like I felt like I was doing it by myself and I didn't know who I could call, like, it was just, you know, kind of a lot and slowly I just kind of slipped.

Into myself, you know, I kind of got back into those chains of self and I can see that very clearly now and the moment I couldn't really see it. And I, and I [00:33:00] also could feel that I was like physically almost turning my back. On, uh, you know, my higher power, my God. And like, I know this would help me if I just went to this, but I'm not doing that.

Yeah. Like I had like a 10, not 

Patti: going to, yeah, 

And so like, and then that lasts for, if you let that go for a while, it creates a whole big problem for me. That was like a sober bottom, right? I was like, right at the end and back at the end of my drinking. I didn't want to drink or use. Cause I just personally just knew that wasn't going to be an option for me, but I felt the same way.

You know, and I really wanted, I wanted that escape. I wanted to get out. And, um, luckily for me, I didn't do that, but I know for you, you experienced a lot of women, you're experienced for sure already. And then other people who do choose to go back out or do choose to relapse. And then of course, what we know about this disease is nothing.

I think it's good about that, you know, I'm just curious if you could speak to a little bit around, you know, like what you saw in yourself or like other people now that you're further away from it. Like, why does that happen? Like, how do we get to that place? What are we [00:34:00] not doing? What are we doing? And then like, how do we kind of become aware of it and then prevent it?

Patti: Exactly. Um, I, I interviewed a lot of women for, for my, um, second book, which is called recovery road trip. And I was really interested why women relapse and I interviewed women from my workshops. I interviewed women after, um, after meetings, I got their approval if, if they were okay. So why women relapsed and why some came back, some didn't.

Um, and I think, uh, the, the, the main thing that I heard really, um, really strongly from all women was about, as I said, connection. They didn't feel connected to people in the same way for myself. And I'll, I'll speak for myself only. Although I did hear this echoed a few times. I was arrogant. I was arrogant as fuck.

It was like, I've got this, I'm fine. I don't need this. [00:35:00] You know? Um, and I didn't feel that connection and I felt like I can do this. I'm fine. I can, I can drink like a normal person. Um, and that arrogance honestly was really dangerous. I think it is for all of us. And you mentioned there before it just sort of pulling away from my higher power.

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I, I quit meditating. I still read the literature, but almost like, well, this is just my safety net kind of thing. Um, and so, so that was a huge piece. I think that there's. Also a danger with women in that there's unless again, unless we find our tribe. Unless we discover something like she recovers or a group that's working with women.

There's so much patriarchy in the old literature that a lot of women get turned off and it's like, yeah, well, fuck you. I don't, I don't, I don't need this. I don't want to hear it. Um, And I love a lot of things that, [00:36:00] um, her name escapes me who wrote quit like a woman. Um, 

yeah, Holly 

Patti: Whitaker. She has some great information.

She's not in 12 step and that's fine. You know, but she talks about advertising. That just is so alluring. She talks about the, you know, if you look on, on Facebook and on social media, just how, um, how sparkling it looks out there. In the, uh, drinking and using world. So it's, if we pull away from this community, if we lose that connection, it's easy to get pulled back into those smoke and mirrors.

And, you know, that's why I started drinking again. Luckily there weren't a lot of drugs around and I didn't go down that path. But the people that were sitting on their decks next to the beach, drinking really good wine and having the kids play, it looked so pretty. It looked so pretty. And for a [00:37:00] lot of women, it works for me.

It didn't, you know, for me, it didn't, it was way too easy to get sucked right down, but I was arrogant. Like I can do this. I'm smart. I know the rules. I know, I know how it works. I'm good. Um, and just that, um, I think that also with, you know, other women, it just, it came up in different ways. It was looking for a connection, not feeling connected to something outside.

A lot of women that, um, I spoke to relapsed again because of partners. You know, a lot of the reasons why a lot of women started using in the first place, their partners are using the partners were drinking or using a substance. And it was like, I just don't want to fight it anymore. I got clean and sober.

I did okay, but I'm too tired. 

Yeah, totally. And so it sounds like, you know, like from your research too, there's just a variety of reasons, but really what the thing that stands out to me and the message that I always heard too, like what you will hear if you go, if you do go to meetings in whatever forum, [00:38:00] if you listen to people, what you'll hear is generally speaking, they stopped doing the things that were working when they When they started 

Patti: exactly 

just that simple.

I mean, I think sometimes we were like, Oh, how could it be that simple? It's just not that simple, but it is, you know, because, and it makes perfect sense. If you, if you were doing something that was helping you, if you were showing up at meetings, if you were going to therapy, if you were talking to, you know, a sponsor or other women in your group, reading your book, doing, you know, step work or whatever work is in your program.

You know, you're connected all the time. You're exactly in the material you're, you're right there. But as soon as you kind of start to slip away, oh, I, you know, I'm not going to get to that one today because of whatever, you know, we can, we can start making other things a priority and yeah, you're right.

Like that's the things, that's the same exact stuff that I used to hear too. When I was coming up as well. And, and I've experienced that myself, even since then, even though I haven't picked up a drink or a drug, like I I've shared on this podcast many times, I can make myself sick with a lot of other things, mostly food for [00:39:00] me.

So like, um, I have done that, you know, I've kind of relapsed, but I'd choose Chick fil A milkshakes, you know, lots of sugar and food as like my obsession and compulsion instead of, you know, a traditional drug or alcohol. And it works the same way, right? It hits the same dopamine receptors. It hit, it helps me escape from the feelings.

Helps me soothe myself, give myself some kind of comfort or soothing. That's completely unhealthy for me. Yep. Right. Exactly. And, and it makes sense though, you know, like, cause cause Patty, like who wants to sit in the discomfort of all of the things, right? 

Patti: Absolutely. 

And it takes like, anyway, for me, I think maybe I'm a, I'm a sometimes slowly kind of girl.

A lot of years or decades to like, be comfortable with the discomforts of life. Now I'm not sitting around here being like, Oh, I love it when things are bad. But I have had many times where I've literally sat like here in this office and I've just kind of cried my eyes out, you know, or I've, or I've just given myself a space where for a day or week, particularly like at the [00:40:00] end of the year when I'm reflecting on things or something was really going on in the COVID times for us, where I just was like, not.

Well, you know, but I, but I was able to like, just sit in that and like be ugly crying and kind of like accept that, you know, and also give myself a lot of grace in that. Like I was able to say like, Oh, these are my core values. These are the things that I do every day that I'm not going to deviate from.

But you know what? They might not look the same as they did when I'm really well. Like when I go to the gym, it might look like, you know, I'm going to stand on the treadmill and put it on like 3. 0. And just walk really slow for 30 minutes versus like any other thing dramatic. Cause that's all I have today.

Right. Right. Exactly. That's the point. Don't you think like just showing up however we can give ourselves grace, feel those feelings, allow yourself to cry, scream, express it, go for a run, whatever you need to do. 

Patti: Absolutely. To feel it and let it come out. And for me, something that Is vital and it was [00:41:00] it's been vital in my recovery all along and I share this with with lots of women that I've worked with is I need a creative outlet.

It doesn't matter what it is, but I need a creative outlet for me. That's journaling. I'm a writer. And I owe any, any of my sponsees and anybody that I've worked with in workshops, I say, get a journal first thing. And even if you don't know what to write, write, I don't know what to write, and even just scratch on paper and tell you're letting whatever is sitting like a lump inside and let it out.

We want to externalize that internal work. And, you know, dance, you know, no one has to be there. No one has to see you move, do something, go out and garden, pick up something and sketch. No, one's going to see it. It's not to sell, get that out. Because when we're In that creative process, we are connecting with that higher self.

We are getting out of our little tiny [00:42:00] brain. We are moving into something bigger. And so creativity, in my opinion, is massive. It's a huge piece and a great tool for exploring, you know, what's under this, you know, what's, what's on top, what's under it, what's going on. Why am I in this place where I know my, you know, I know being clean and sober is the best thing for me.

Why am I feeling like I want to crawl out of my skin? And I find that therapy and creativity are the two tools that are essential. 

Hmm. I love that. Yeah. And I think that, um, creativity is so, uh, such an underutilized. skill. And also we just, I don't know that we talk, we talk about it enough and also just the variety of ways that can show up.

You know, I, I don't view myself as a creative in general. Like I'm not. I, I don't really care for journaling that much, although I will do it [00:43:00] occasionally at different times in my life. Um, but I used to love, uh, like scrapbooking, you know, like I, I loved doing that. It was so fun. I would like, and I wasn't, no, like it wasn't magical.

I would like get books and kind of follow, but, and also like, and I love over the last few years, I love doing like DIY Products like essential oil stuff. Like I make lip balm and bath bombs and like essential oil rollers. So like, for me, that's creative. Like, 

Patti: yeah, absolutely. You like 

cooking, you know, or you like growing plants, you know?

Like, so it doesn't have to be art. Like, so when we say exactly, it's like so many methods and it even could be like a thinking creative, like it could be a strategizing, like maybe you love to just brainstorm, maybe you like to get together with other people and talk about. Um, the world, or, you know, like a business issue or something.

And like, you are like a high level strategic planner kind of type and you, that's your creativity genius. Right. And so I would just encourage everybody listening to really embrace that about yourself. What, what is it for you that, where that plays [00:44:00] out, you know, and it can look a lot of ways versus Drawing painting.

Patti: Absolutely. Creativity is not artistry. You don't have to be an artist. Right. Creating, basically, is hooking into that higher self, into that soup, into that source. And, and, and letting it flow through you. Whatever that looks like. And it can be, as you said, it can be anything. It can be movement. It can be gardening, cooking, as you said.

It doesn't have to be drawing or making something pretty. And in workshops, when, when we did, when we talked about journaling, it was basically scratch, get something out of you so that it's letting it out. And, um, I love the book, the artist's way and Julia Cameron, who's, who's in recovery as well, just talks about the artist's way isn't about being an artist.

It's about moving into a creative space because that's. where our power is. That's where [00:45:00] we're hooking with our higher self. That's where we are really in that, in that flow. And I think that doing anything creative, anything at all, is the best way to get into that flow state. 

Yeah, I agree with that. And, and I think it's really fun when we can explore what that looks like for us.

Um, in this new stage, because maybe you had a different way before, or you were, or you thought you liked this thing. Like you thought you really loved cooking and then you're like, actually, I just don't like this at all. I'm only doing it because I thought I was supposed to do, or someone told me I had to do it.

And so now in this stage, you get to like, consider that you get to really dig deep and be like, what did I like to do when I was, When I was a kid, you know, how did I like to play? Was it with like building blocks or art stuff, or did I like, um, tiny, you know, like, um, toys, like little miniature things, you know, and just check in with yourself, like, how can that play out in the adult world?

And there's always a way, you know, 

Patti: exactly. 

So I really appreciate your wisdom here. And I think that this conversation is so powerful, [00:46:00] particularly around kind of monitoring our own emotional management and then specifically around just paying attention and watching out for those signs of relapse, you know, and whether or not like, like, you're actually going to pick up a substance.

I'm going to do that, but you're still going to be not well and acting as if you were like an active addiction or choosing another thing like food or maybe it's sex or shopping or something else. You know, there's a lot of ways to get that dopamine hit scrolling, you know, and so like, yeah, got it. That's for all of us.

Absolutely. Seeing like, what's going on with me right now? Like, What am I trying to escape from? Those are great questions to be asking yourself. And you really have to dig deep. Like you need to dig, ask it and like, be real honest. Like, I don't really want to deal with that conflict. Oh, I know I'm supposed to call my mom, but I don't want to, you know, like, what are we trying to escape from?

Cause let's face it, all of us are trying to do that most of the time. 

Patti: Yeah, absolutely. 

You know, like sometimes we can escape and it's a good way, you know, it's a recharge way. It's a, [00:47:00] Hey, I'm just going to go veg out and reset, you know, So I appreciate this conversation so much and your expertise and I would love for you to just share where you like people to get ahold of you and reach you if they want to reach out.

Patti: Thanks so much, Shelby. Um, my, my new book Recovery Road Trip Finding Purpose and Connection on the Journey Home is out now. It just, it just dropped on the 1st of October. Um, And that's available through Simon Schuster or on Amazon or in, um, books or hopefully in any of your beautiful independent bookstores, because that's where I love to send people first, if at all possible, support, support your bookstore.

Right. Um, my website is pattyclark. org, P A T T I C L A R K dot org. And I have a YouTube. channel that has meditations and visualizations. Visualization has been a huge, huge part of my [00:48:00] recovery journey. And, um, yeah. 

Thank you so much. I'll make sure that, um, I linked to that website below, um, your books and all, and I really appreciate that.

I encourage everybody to kind of, and to go check out Patty's website, check out her books and. And read them because there's a lot of wisdom in that. And especially anybody who takes the time to do all of these interviews and, um, talking to other people who are similar to us, we can get so much, just so much.

Wisdom and so much insight when we pay attention to other people's stories. You know, we usually find ourselves in those stories somewhere, and then it makes us feel even more connected. It makes us feel more community. So thanks again for your time and for your talent. And I hope our paths cross again soon.

And I hope you have a fantastic day. 

Patti: Thanks so much, Shelby.