Breaking the Cycle: How One Woman Conquered Generational Addiction and Rewrote Her Story w/Karin E Clark

Journey with Karin E. Clark through her powerful recovery story - from growing up in an alcoholic family to finding sobriety, overcoming fertility challenges, and building a meaningful counseling career. Learn practical tools for healing, personal growth, and breaking generational patterns of addiction.

Key Takeaways:

• Understanding addiction as a symptom of deeper emotional pain
• Practical recovery strategies beyond traditional 12-step programs
• Healing core beliefs like "I'm not enough"
• Techniques for emotional regulation and self-awareness

Guest Highlights: Karin E. Clark, MS

• Addiction Recovery Counselor
• Specializes in teen and family system counseling
• 40+ years in recovery
• Relocating to Portugal in April

Connect with Karin:

• Email: info@karineclark.com
• Website: www.karineclark.com
• Phone: 608-215-7755

Practical Tools Discussed:

1. Pause and breathe before reacting
2. Use "I" statements in communication
3. Ask "What am I feeling?" during emotional triggers
4. Practice self-compassion and internal focus

Recommended Resources:

• "A Woman's Way Through the 12 Steps" book
• EMDR therapy
• Remote Neurofeedback Therapy-Learn more here.

Transcript

Well, hey there, Karen. Thank you so much for joining me today for the confident sober women podcast. I'm so excited to have you here today and with my audience, and I can't wait to hear a little bit more about your story. And then we're gonna talk, so I'm gonna turn the mic over to you, let you share a little bit more, and we'll get into I'm looking for I've been looking forward to being here, and I really appreciate having you having me on. So my story.

I have been involved in recovery since 1984, so it's been a while. But, I'll get into more of that as we go. I grew up in an alcoholic family. I had a mom I adored and really, really valued and respected when I was young. She was brilliant.

Graduated from UC Berkeley at in 1947, which was not very common for women. And she knew 7 languages fluently and, could have done so many things in her life. She got married, had my sister and I, had me and then my sister. I'm the oldest of the 2. And basically sat at the kitchen table and drank herself to death.

It was incredibly painful, and I watched the decline more so than my sister because by the time she was cognizant, my mom was already at least halfway gone, as far as being present. The interesting piece to me when you look at our family is that my father was also an alcoholic and a workaholic, but he looked really good. So went to work wearing a suit every day, was very successful, had his own business, and he drank every day, but there were times when he drank out of control. I learned when I was older that he had actually had 3 DUIs by the time I was 25. No one ever knew.

No one ever knew. And they weren't doing DUIs the same way back then. It was sort of like, oh, you were naughty, but we'll send you home when you're sober. So, so, anyway, my I too went to UC Berkeley. I was the hero in the family to start with.

The roles in a family are often hero, scapegoat, or rebel, lost child, and then the comic. And, or the the yeah. Basically, the comic. And, I was the hero throughout growing up and into high school. I was straight a student.

I was in advanced classes. I, could have gotten into any college probably, but I didn't believe that. But I got into the ones I applied to, and I ended up at UC Berkeley. And in hindsight, I know that was because that's where my mom went, and I was trying to save her. But it was not as apparent.

I didn't give myself choices in other words, really. And, by the time I was a senior in college, I drove home one Friday and the front door was locked, and our front door was never locked. And that was really, I remember feeling panic. Like, why would this be happening? And, I ended up ringing the doorbell and knocking, and my mom opened the door in her usual bathrobe, no washed hair, etcetera.

Only I looked looked at her and there was light in the room and she was yellow. She was bright yellow, including her eyes. So very jaundiced. And, I went over to the next door neighbor to make some phone calls. I was hysterical internally, but I couldn't show that.

We ended up taking her to the doctor, to the ER, with the help of my neighbor. And, she was diagnosed with both both severe cirrhosis and liver cancer. And I mentioned that because I had partied during high school a little bit, but what was more prep and college. But what was more prevalent at that time was my codependency. I was always the one that was rescuing people who were really drunk and telling them not to drink as much or trying to keep them away from drugs.

Those kinds of things. But when my mom died when I was a senior in college, the the switch flipped. I was adamant. My dad had left when I was, 14. And, so I was in charge.

I I had been taking care of my mom, etcetera. And I was in charge, and I said there will be no alcohol at the funeral gathering after the funeral. And because our whole family, both sides, drink. And I was adamant about it, and I was very self righteous. However, comma, I could not get through the day.

I ended up driving to the store. I was only 20, but I looked 21, I guess. And, driving to the store, getting a 6 pack of beer and hiding it in my car. That was the 1st day of secret drinking. That was the 1st day of not being able I just walk outside every few minutes and say I needed air.

And that's very significant to me because it's so clear. And my drinking, really progressed. My mom stayed home and drank, like I said, sat at the kitchen table, and I was adamant I would be nothing like my mom, so I drank at bars. I'm not gonna stay home. I'm gonna go out and drink.

I did get go to grad school, got my teaching credential. I was teaching continuation high school in East Oakland. For anyone who doesn't know, that was an extremely, impoverished and also thought of as being dangerous area. And these were kids who were already on probation and having babies at 16. And that was my passion.

It was really important to me. I drank all the way through that and really was recognizing that that my passion was more about what was going on with them. So, within those years that I was there, my drinking increased tremendously. I was drinking every day. I was drinking significantly.

And, as a result of that, I ended up with 3 DUIs myself. And I couldn't face that this was really saying that I had a significant problem. I just thought that the the police were harassing me. And who knows how many times back in that era I had been stopped, and they said, oh, sweetie, be careful driving home because you've been drinking, haven't you? It's like, yeah.

It was a very different era. So getting 3 DUIs was pretty significant. With the third one, I had to do a lot, including going to classes and going to AA. And I also knew that if I got another DUI, I was going to jail and that scared me. I mean, I had been picked up, put in jail, all of that.

But, and one of my biggest issues was fear, and that's important to say because it was a thread throughout my recovery in my life as well. But I did get sober at 30 in, May of 1984, and I took it very seriously, and I was very active in recovery. And, I ended up meeting my I decided to go back to grad school since I knew that I was not doing what I needed to be doing as a teacher. And besides, I was very ashamed of how I had been and wanted to run. But I did go back to grad school, and I studied got my masters to, become a therapist, a counselor.

I did a lot of specializing in addiction related issues in the masters. That was an era where woo woo in California was huge. I used to say that I got my masters in pink tofu and peacock feathers. I got my master's in transpersonal psychology from the Graduate School of Consciousness Studies. So my main professor and my thesis adviser was a woman who taught a class in the transpersonal issues in Addictive Family Systems, and it was so powerful.

And I still to this day use that person's definition of addiction, which is a repeated behavior with a predictable outcome that is an unconscious and unsuccessful attempt at self healing, which to me is just so powerful. And it really Gabor Mate, I mentioned, at some point talking to you that, his statement now is really a synthesis of that. He says, don't ask why the addiction, ask why the pain. And that's really what this is about. And as I progressed in my recovery, I began to go deeper into my own experience and also into, philosophies and practices and information research, etcetera, that was a little bit deeper than just AA.

And I don't say that with criticism. I'm still a, regular attendee of meetings 40 years later. So so that's really really sick it was very significant to me, and I ultimately did start doing I got the degree I did because I wanted to do workshops and which were big back in the day. Workshops, counseling, teaching, writing, etcetera. And I did all of those things for a number of years.

And then I married a man in, my that was in my program at at, the the graduate school. And he was not an addict. He but, you know, I was a little starry eyed at the time with all this new philosophy. He was very spiritual. And my joke these days is just ask him.

But, or back in the day, I'm back in I don't say that anymore. Just asking. Anyway, that was when I was angry, but guess who showed up at the wedding? I did. So, we had a really interesting relationship is the way that I'll say it today.

And I had a very strong desire to have a child. I had always wanted to, and then I was drinking, and then I was in recovery. And now I'm 38 years old getting married for the first time. And so I was like, I don't know how many people on here will have ever heard of this, but I I was like Donna Reed. I I wanted to, you know, wear the pearls for the 1st year of marriage and be cute.

I wasn't thinking about age. So I was 39 before I started trying to get pregnant. And, we went through quite a bit with that, including not getting pregnant and me falling apart and and feeling terrified, etcetera. And, ultimately going to a fertility specialist, and they did a clomid test, which is common. Lots of people know about those.

It's to test your FSH, your follicular stimulation hormone, and how your eggs are doing and so forth. And, and what no one told me at the time is and there wasn't the web like this. That Clomid can can mimic cause your body to mimic pregnancy. So I was absolutely you know, they just do it for the test, but then they also are they give you anyway, I won't go into all those details. They're not important, but I thought I was pregnant.

I was sure I was pregnant. I was so excited. And then, I did the pregnancy test at home, but that well and it wasn't. Well, you know, it's probably early. I I did all the rationalizing.

And, my, I went to the OBGYN at the fertility clinic, and, that test was negative. And the doctor called and said, you aren't pregnant. And at your age with his sperm count, you have a 7% chance of ever getting pregnant with in vitro and none without it. So I cried for 3 days. I was just despondent.

And, and then I woke up and said, this dude doesn't even know me. He doesn't even know me. And he's that's a doomsday response to somebody. It was so painful. But I did all the work I could think of doing, which I had learned in recovery.

Even though this was now a completely different issue. And that's one of the things I love about sobriety and recovery is that it can apply to anything in our lives. It's so powerful. And needless to say, I went to lots of meetings on top of the other things I did. And I I changed my diet.

I changed my lifestyle. I cut back on working. My husband was very supportive. He did some things. And about I think it was about 14 months later, I didn't get my period.

And I thought, oh my god. Could it be? And somebody said, well, you could be going into menopause. Thank you for sharing. And, one morning, I said, it's it's been 10 days, and I was like, a clock.

And so I did pregnancy test at home. I came downstairs. I sat up. This still touches me deeply. Sat on the couch and said, I can't go look.

I can't. So my husband went up the stairs and looked at the test and came back down and smiled and said, hi, mom. It was really beautiful. So that is a huge part of my story because as a sober woman after what my sister and I had been through in an alcoholic home, I was pregnant and had a child, and I was 42 when she was born. And, oh, another favorite part is I did call the doctor and say, guess what?

I'm pregnant. And he said, literally, like it was set up, how? And I said, why I had sex. I mean, how do you think? Anyway, so, and with recovery, I also said my higher power, sex, and my acupuncture, but I didn't have sex with my acupuncturist.

Anyway, and again, this is all about sobriety. It's about family systems work. It's about not drinking and choosing health. It's about looking at all layers of health, Not, you know, I'm I'm walking every day, or I'm going to meetings, but what am I eating? What am I thinking?

What am I doing with my feelings? Am I believing as we used to say so regularly, the committee in my head? And so, needless to say, I was very grateful. However, when my daughter was 5 and ready to start kindergarten, she wasn't quite 5 yet. But in in the year prior, I started thinking, I don't wanna raise her here in the Bay Area.

It's fast. It's intense. School is nothing like what it used to be. And so as a result, I, started looking at places to move with a couple of very important things in mind. And we ended up moving to Madison, Wisconsin.

And it was beautiful and fun, and I got to know people. And she started kindergarten, and the schools were everything I had read for the most part. And it was fabulous. However, comma, again, no one there knew I was in recovery. And now I'm with moms, and I can drink.

I've been sober for so long. It won't be a problem. I'm so mature. I'm so spiritual. I'm so and I didn't go to meetings like I had because I was connecting with the school piece of things.

And so, I connected with this group of women in my neighborhood, and like is so prevalent on the web today, and this is, of course, before it was such a big thing, they love to get together and drink wine. And I did not want to be different. As an ACA and an alcoholic, I wanted to be part of the group. And I had moved away from my strong recovery community. So I started drinking, and my standing joke is, I'll be fine as long as I drink out of a crystal glass with my pinky extended.

Except that after 3 glasses, I'll drink out of your shoes because I've lost all connection with anything rational. I've lost all connection with any sense of pride or concern about, how I am, my personality changed, etcetera. And I did that for quite a while, I have to say. I didn't drink much. I only drank, like, only.

Any amount is too much, but 3 times a year, say, or 4 times a year. But as it progressed, that the alcohol impact was very severe. The blackouts became very severe. The shame became very severe. And thank goodness I am one of the very lucky ones.

I was able to walk back into the rooms. And interestingly, one of the reasons that worked is because I wasn't walking back into rooms where people knew me. I was in Madison and hadn't been in meetings much there. So I walked back into rooms, told my story honestly, but I didn't have to look at faces of people who had stayed sober that I had gotten sober with early on. And that made it much easier for me, and I feel as though I was guided and deeply I I recognize how very lucky I was.

It was fantastic, that I was able to connect with a community of women. I went to 90% women's meetings, which I had always hated. Of course, I was in my thirties. So, you know, it was always nice to be with boys and see who was cute. And now I was a mom.

I was, in my fifties, and none of that mattered. I wanted help. I wanted hope. I wanted connection. I wanted community, And that's something that sobriety offers.

Whether it's through 12 step programs or through other groups that have now formed online and, with different names and, etcetera. I mean, one of my favorite pieces of literature is A Woman's Way Through the 12 Steps. And when there are groups around that book, it's incredibly healing and and powerful. So, meanwhile, I'm in my private practice now. I had left it because it wasn't appropriate, of course, and I was working in the arena of schools again, especially interrupting the school to prison pipeline.

I'm very passionate about that still in my volunteer work. And I went back into my into my work as a counselor. And when I moved back to the Bay Area, which was once my daughter left for college, I got a job 2 days after I arrived as the senior clinician at a drug and alcohol treatment program and just immersed myself in that work. At that point, I had 4 years of recovery sobriety again and, maybe only 3. Anyway, but I I was I was solid in my sobriety, and I felt good about that.

And I worked there for the first 5 years I was here, and then I left because COVID shuts so much down and started my private practice again. And, as I mentioned, I was part of high school. I was part of, school programs in Madison. So I have a great passion about working with teens, and I am especially well, I I'll use the word passion again. Passionate about working with teens when they're being blamed for their behavior and people aren't looking at what might be the host of that, whether it's long term family issues, not abuse, not anything hugely negative, but that there have been generations of don't talk, don't think, don't trust, don't feel.

The family system issues and those family rules that Claudia Black made so famous famous, decades ago now. And and that they're rebelling against that that they're saying this isn't healthy. They don't know what they know, but they know that. And, of course, then cannabis and and, so many other drugs have become popular, and so they go down that escape hatch. These days, it can also be being online.

And I say that about teens, but as adults, we're very prone to that as well these days. So addiction has a broad, broad scope. And I I love working with people around all of those and around the issues that they grew up with, whether they're adults, young adults, older teens, whatever it might be. And I I feel very, very grateful. And I will say that the other element of what occurred for me that would never have happened, and I have stories about that, is that because of where my sister is now and because of something my daughter said, and she's 28.

So she could change. She will change 3 or 4 times before anything happens. But, I am actually moving to Portugal in April. So I am in, and and for me, what that's why that's important besides the fact that I'll be close to my sister for the first time in 30 years because she's been living in in, New Zealand. And she's now in Portugal and will be about 30 kilometers away from one another, and starting meetings there and so forth.

It's just a very exciting situation. But I could never have done that had it not been for recovery because my fear and my shame were so intense that I would have said I wanted to do it, but I wouldn't have been able to. I wouldn't have been able to follow through. And I can regret the opportunities I had that I couldn't take because of that fear, but I can also celebrate or feel sad. Not so much regret anymore, but feel sad for that part of me, for that woman who was 30 or 25 and couldn't do those things.

But I can also celebrate what I've been given as a result of this miracle. Because how many of us are out there and can't find our way here? It's in the 1,000,000 and 1,000,000. So, I'm I'm incredibly grateful that there's more attention to the dangers, and that alcohol isn't different than drugs and is a drug and isn't fun when you really look at it. So I'm grateful for that.

I'm I'm deeply grateful for the connections and the people that we get to engage with as a result of this process. And I'll let you ask me some questions so that I don't. Yeah, I'd love to talk about anything you'd like to hear about. Well, thank you so much, Karen, for all of that, for your lengthy story and such an a vulnerable share. Appreciate it.

That's really how it works. Right? When we show up and we honestly share about our our experience with active addiction and then also with recovery. And when we can spread that message of hope to others, we bring, kind of love and light and Yes. Opportunity to everybody around us.

And that's really my whole mission too with this podcast and with all the work that I do in my even in my private practice. So, I love the definition that you shared about, addiction and then also the shorter version as well. I totally can relate to that, and I do believe that, you know, with more and more time and research, we've discovered that, you know, as you hear if you did get sober in the rooms of, Alcoholics Anonymous or one of the 12 steps you probably heard, you know, the alcohol is but a symptom. And so, you know, luckily, we hear things like that now, and it's backed up by research to show us that really addiction is a symptom of a larger problem that stems from inside of us. It is in our bodies and in our minds.

And then that comes from trauma. You know? And, we know that now from all kinds of brain studies and MRI images and all kinds of, ACE testing, things like that. So Yeah. I'm super grateful that we have a lot of that material now to show us that, you know, we're not bad people.

We're just, you know, somebody that got tangled up with a coping skill that we thought was the glue that was keeping us together, and it really was the thing that was trying to kill us. So Often a coping skill that we saw modeled. Mhmm. By the very people who were who were our caretakers. That's right.

And so, like you said, I mean, what we've learned and discovered is and and in your own personal journey, you've been able to, like, look back and start to look at what were those things. You know, what were the things that were kind of the root cause, the core, memories or the core beliefs or the situations that were the kind of root cause of the negative beliefs that you had about yourself that then ultimately led you to want to escape your life using drugs and alcohol. Right? So maybe you could say just a little bit about that. Like, what did you discover were the negative beliefs or the root causes for you?

Well, the number one is I'm not enough. Yeah. Number 1 by far. And it shows as I began looking at that and continue to do that, it shows up in so many ways, some of which are subtle. And I wouldn't necessarily recognize that not enough was the core reason that I just did that behavior, but it was.

And so it's being vigilant, lovingly vigilant about paying attention. That's wonderful. And I can relate to that too. That is the core belief that I had as well that I'm not good enough. That's, like, the number one reason.

And all the things in trauma that, like, kind of relate to that, you know, start to become possible to the surface as we do our own therapy and trauma work throughout the process. Exactly. And recognizing who contributed. The critical voices that we heard day after day after day about, what we were doing wrong. Like, for me, a big one was I learned to cope unconsciously by eating.

My first issue was needing disorder. It was compulsive eating. And so I heard every day from my father, can't you lose weight? Why are you so weak? That's one that really stands out.

Well, we internalize those, and we're not necessarily aware of how strong they are when we're really young. We just continue to beat ourselves up. And, so that's I'm not enough. I'm not doing it right. I'm, I'm not nearly as good as other people, etcetera.

Yeah. Yeah. And then those things just, you know, what we know from those that brain research now and is that those negative beliefs get formed, and then they create those neuro pathways that get carved carved deeper with more experiences that kind of align with those negative beliefs with ourselves. So more things happen that make us continuously believe, like, oh, I'm not good enough. Oh, here it is again.

I'm not gonna and this is all unconscious level in the back of our brains, right, that's creating that neuro pathway that leads, to more and more trouble, more and more disconnection from self, more and more, negative self talk and beliefs about ourselves, which sends us into that spiral looking for a way to escape. And, one of the things that neuroscience teaches us is that we can refill those neuro pathways or, kind of rebuild them using amazing opportunities like EMDR therapy, which is what I do in my practice, and also, you know, neurofeedback, which is another program that I recently added because these are the things that are literally training our brains That's right. And, like, rewiring them to perform at the level, like, we want them to and to really heal those parts that were damaged by the trauma. So lucky for us, you know, over years years of science and research, we have modalities now that can help us that are literally science based. And, also, we have all the things.

What I love about your story too is very similar to mine. I got sober in AA as well. I love it. I still promote it. I think it's a really important part of people's recovery, especially in the beginning.

Because it provides a lot of things like fellowship. It teaches us how to follow directions. There's a lot of really good things. But then there's a lot of things that most that a lot of people don't relate to or that we kind of grow out of, I guess, in a way, or we I always say we need to layer on those other things. Like, you know, things like, you know, acupuncture, and I use that too.

Like, Reiki, you know, spirituality is another part of that, like, beginning to learn and grow and develop whatever that looks like for you. You know, maybe it's a more traditional practice, like a religious practice, or maybe it's a more, you know, complimentary practice, you know, a modality, whatever that looks like. But, really finding those things that make you, feel good and feel connected to something outside yourself. So those are the layers we get to build and recover. Absolutely.

It's amazing. Absolutely. And apply and really start to see how many areas of our lives they apply to and can benefit we can benefit from as a result. Yeah. Whether it's looking at food issues or, or, the Internet or whatever it might be.

And and that, I think, is one of the greatest gifts of that comprehensive holistic approach where we are and I don't wanna use the wrong real word rely. Where we're we're getting ourselves the gift of knowing that we don't have to follow a neuropath. We can bring in so many things and apply them in so many ways. I agree with that. And I that's one of the things I love about it too is that when we do when we do continuously work on ourselves, when we're we're we're deeply invested in personal development, which never ends, by the way.

I always say we're under construction. Right? So this never ends till we die. Right? And so, like, if we're deeply invested in that, then we're always gonna be looking for ways to apply these principles to everything else in our life.

So when the thing comes up, you know, like, I have 3 young people in my life. They're 21, 19, and 17 now. We've been through some very, you know, challenging teenage years, all of the things COVID. You know? And when so when the thing teenage years, all of the things COVID.

You know? And when so when the thing comes up, you know, like, in life and you're like, holy smokes. Like, here's this thing, and I've never seen this before, and it feels like this. And, you know, we're just challenged with by all of these emotions, you know, we can get right back to our roots, right back to the basics and think, okay. Like, what what can I control?

You know, what what part of this belongs to me? You know, what part of this belongs to somebody else? Like, where do I need to have acceptance? Where where do I need to make amends? So, right, we start to apply these principles to all areas, whether it's your employer, whether it's your personal physical health, whether it's in your marriage, whether it's your parenting.

It's all areas. And, for me, that just gotten better and I was just talking with a family a friend of mine, who struggles a lot with, like, kind of, I guess, some people pleasing, but a lot of just, like, feeling like they are responsible for other people and, like, they have to fix it and, like, you know, just really being heavily invested in, like, what other people think or feel. And it's not necessarily a it's not a bad thing. I mean, these are kind of actually nice qualities, but it's really was it's really harming her. You know?

It's harming her, and it's harming her mental health and her and her and her ability to be in her her a mom and a wife and herself. And so being able to kinda share with her some of these principles, like, you know, you're not responsible for other people. You're just not. And, like, you're allowed to, like, let them have their feelings. Like, they're allowed to be mad or disappointed or whatever.

Like, they're allowed to have this feeling. Exactly. And then you can just still continue to carry on with what it is that you want. That's not that's easier said than done. I understand that.

And it takes a great deal of practice. But, boy, I feel like I've been practicing that for the last 10 years, and it is astounding. Like, the freedom that you have, and you just realize, like, other people's beliefs, feelings, and all that about me Mhmm. Are really none of my business. Like, they're allowed to have them.

And it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt for a second. You're like, oh, wow. That's kind of yucky. Like, they feel like they don't really like me or I'm selfish or or whatever they wanna say. Like, it feels a little bit like, oh, but then after you can get past that initial thing and realize, like, yeah, this isn't really about me.

It's not for me. It's not it's not my responsibility. It's not my problem. It's such a relief. It is such a relief.

It is. It is such a relief. And I think that one of the big pieces because we do tend to have the challenge of looking at somebody else that we care about walking through things like that. And with awareness, we don't have to judge it. Whereas so many people do and sharing with others that, you know, what you're seeing this person do today has been fueled and and fed for years.

So being able to cultivate compassion instead of judgment too. One phrase that was given to me that I really love is she's not doing it to you. She's just doing it. Right. I mean, it's it's it's profound, you know, and these are simple concepts.

You know, the things that we learned, you and I both, and if you were around in in 12 stuff, you did too. Like, these simple like, the like, the slogans. You know? We think, like, oh, that's so silly or what what is, you know, live and let let you know, these things Live and let live. Yeah.

Impactful because they are just they are the truth. Right? They are the truth about how we can how we can live our lives in a way that provides us with so much freedom. You know, and, Mel Robbins, wrote I don't know if you know Mel Robbins. She's a Oh, yeah.

Super famous. Well, her new book is the like, called let them or the let them theory. Okay. Right. I mean, like, again, I think I've been practicing this for, like, the last 10 years or so, and it's just getting better and better and better.

But reading the book now, I'm just like, it's so profound. And I just can't I just wanna share it with everybody because I'm like, everybody can have this recovery or not. Like, whether you're just Exactly. You don't have to call recovery. Yeah.

Everybody can have this. You know? But I think we just get so wrapped up in feeling like we have more control over really anything than we do. Like, we literally have no control over most things except for what we put in our mouth or on our bodies. Like, that is comes out of our mouth.

Yeah. Like, that's really it. The rest of it is really, really, we don't. But it's really hard to accept that, you know, because we are changemakers. You know, we wanna be we wanna be impactful.

You know, we wanna be the difference, you know, and, you know, we get to be influences in a lot of areas. Absolutely. But change maker, maybe, maybe not, but really comes from other individuals. So it's a weird place to be. I'm just curious.

In your practice, like, when you're working with people, just in our last, like, minute or 2 here, like, what are what are, like, 1 or 2, like, practical things that you really you share with them or teach them to do in order to kind of do this kind of work? Do you have, like, some tips, tools, tricks that you you teach? Oh, it so varies depending on the person, of course, because each person has cultivated a a sense or a viewpoint. But, one of the biggest ones is always stop and take a breath. Just that moment between what you have always done and what it is you want to do and cultivate so you can do it differently.

Just take a breath. Yeah. And I say that out loud because I need to remember that too. Yeah. Yeah.

I used to use this, the I call them the 3 r's, refrain, reflect, and then respond. It was so helpful for me because it was like, you know, we get the opportunity to, you know, slow down, to take a second, and be like and actually think through, like, what do I want my next step to be? What do I want my next words to be? What or no words? You know?

Or, like, you know, we get to we we we only get that if we stop and we just give ourselves. It could be 10 seconds. It could be 2 days. I mean, there's really no limit to Yes. That.

We put the limits on it a lot of times unless you're being pressured by a deadline or something. But but, like, to think through, like, what do I want my response to be here? That is something you can control. Yes. Your response is something you get to kinda craft.

Now, obviously, if you're in a crisis or things are moving quickly, it's sometimes it's hard. But even in those moments, you can still make make a quick take a quick breath, you know, and make a decision like, what do I what what do I need to do here? You know, like or what do I want? How do I stay in the solution? You know?

Right. So those kinds of things and then respond. And then also learning simple things like, you know, no is a complete sentence. Or Exactly. Know And also asking yourself, remembering to ask yourself, where is my focus right now?

Am I focusing out here on them or am I focusing on what's happening inside me and how do I want to respond to that? And there was terminology that used to be used a lot back in the day. Are you internally referented or externally referented? Because when I'm looking at your behavior and how it impacts me, what I'm really doing is staying in reaction as opposed to how do I feel about this? You know, if I'm always looking at, well, that hurt my feelings and I want them to stop, which feels real because those are my feelings.

But, but am I looking at, do I like this? Is this good for me? Is this something I want to continue? Because I'm focusing on me as opposed to always wanting to make sure people like me. Yeah.

I love that so much. I mean, I love the the, practicality of just asking really good questions of yourself. I teach very often, and I try to do it myself too. Like, the the other question that I think is really impactful is, like, what about this situation is bothering me? You know, when you start to get that feeling inside or in your mind or you start to get activated That's a great on the side.

What is happening? What about this situation right now? And you have to get honest. Okay? You can't just be like, well, he's doing this, or he's not helping me.

You know? What about that is not okay. Fine. He's coming at you. What about that is bothering you?

Well, I feel like my security is being threatened, or I feel like I'm not being respected, you know, or I'm not valuable. I mean, like, there are deeper core issues that are related to those feelings that are bubbling up in your body, but most of us are not self aware enough to notice it enough to take the time to say, what is that? What about this situation? The fact that this kid is sitting in front of me and she's lying to my face, and now I'm getting activated. What about this is bothering me?

You know? Because when you do that, really, honestly, you get to some deeper stuff. That takes an immense amount of emotional maturity, and a lot of people, I feel like, never really actualized to that. And that's what we all should be striving for. We should be trying to reach for these higher levels levels of actualization that aren't just, like, at the surface level of our emotion because emotions are really just designed to let us know something's going on.

Exactly. It's like my. You know? My We could care. Sorry.

Yeah. Like, it is telling you something. It's telling you there's something going on with your foot. There's probably a thing that's ingrained or We can share how we're feeling. I'm scared for you as opposed to you're doing it wrong.

Right. And and the other thing, just lastly, because it's so good, I was just talking to a client in my private practice about this exact thing yesterday. It was great. And we had this lovely conversation because he came to me with a very practical example with his partner, and he's like, how do you how do I tell talk to her about this? And so, you know, I talked to we talked about eye statements and some of those general communication skills, and I said there's a reason why we set that up because it's very difficult for the other person to kind of be defensive or come back at you when you've said, I feel anxious when you leave a lot of messes around the house, when the house is fluttered.

I feel anxious. Because then what does that person be like? Well, no. You don't. You don't really feel anxious.

That that's not really it's hard to come back at that versus, like I mean, they might try, but it's a lot easier to communicate that way. But if they do start to get defensive in what I said to him, if she does start to react or wanna be like, blah blah blah, you can say to her, hey. Listen. It seems like you're getting really reactive. I'm wondering what you heard when I said that.

When I said, I feel anxious about our house being cluttered. What did you hear? And she said, well, I heard I'm not good enough. Exactly. I'm a mess.

I'm a slob. And you're like, oh, okay. That's so interesting because that's not what I said. So that's not what I did. Something on a different level.

Like, because I would and I said to him, I said, honestly and I don't know the research on this. I'm not it's not but I believe it's probably 80% or more, 90, that most times when we talk to other people like that, they do not hear what we said. That's right. They hear the other thing. And even the most actualized of us, like, they're hearing the, do you think I'm a slob?

Right. Or I'm not good enough. And so when we can say that to them, what did you hear when I said that? It's a very powerful question. It is.

We all did that a little bit more. Man, how peaceful would our world be? Exactly. So, Karen, thank you so much for your time. I love your story.

I know our audience is gonna relate to it, and I really appreciate your time. So where can people get ahold of you if they wanna reach out? So, definitely, you can get ahold of me by email, which is, I will just give you, or do you want me to say it out loud? Okay. Here.

Yeah. Okay. It's long. So, actually, that's not true. I can give you a a better one.

Info@kareneclark.com. And naturally, that infers that my website is kareneclark.com. And, also, my phone number, which is 608-215-7755. And I will say again how much I love working with teens. So I'm guessing you have a lot of moms and and dads.

And, sometimes it's communication within the family and having some healing around that so people are listening. It's hard for teens to listen thoroughly because their, their brains because the way their brains are wired, but also teens themselves. So I'll definitely link those, to those things in the show notes as well so people can easily access them. And, again, I thank you so much for your time. And I'm so honored.

Soon. Alright. I'm honored to be here. Thank you again. Thank you.

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