Transforming Financial Habits From Debt to Empowerment w/Linda Parmar

In this powerful episode of the Confident Sober Women podcast, host Shelby John sits down with Linda Parmar, a financial coach specializing in helping women in recovery achieve financial sobriety. 

With raw honesty, Linda shares her journey from being a financial advisor managing millions while secretly drowning in credit card debt and engaging in "blackout shopping."

Key Topics Covered:

• Understanding financial sobriety and breaking free from spending addiction
• The emotional connection between money behaviors and recovery
• How childhood money stories impact our current relationship with finances
• Practical strategies for creating a sustainable spending plan without restriction
• Breaking the shame cycle around financial literacy and money management
• Tips for avoiding spending triggers and establishing healthy money boundaries

Notable Insights:

• Linda's personal journey of paying off $130,000 in credit card debt
• The concept of "financial infidelity" and its impact on relationships
• Why traditional budgets often fail and how spending plans offer a better alternative
• The importance of addressing emotional triggers and money mindset
• Practical solutions like grocery pickup and removing shopping apps to avoid triggers

Resources Mentioned:

• Rocket Money app for spending tracking (US)
• Strategies for building a personalized spending plan
• Tips for maintaining financial sobriety while in recovery

Connect with Linda Parmar:

• Website: lindaparmar.com
• Instagram: @lyndaparmarmoneycoach
• Podcast: Financial Sobriety School

Whether you're in recovery or simply looking to develop a healthier relationship with money, this episode offers valuable insights into breaking free from financial shame and creating lasting change. Linda's story proves that no matter how deep in debt you may be, recovery is possible with the right support and tools.

Share this episode with someone who might be struggling with their relationship with money or anyone interested in learning more about financial sobriety.

Chapters

• 0:09 Financial Sobriety
• 8:36 Consumerism and Emotional Spending
• 14:10 Mindful Spending and Emotional Healing
• 19:51 Challenging Money Mindsets and Budgeting
• 27:38 Financial Literacy and Flexible Spending
• 31:50 Exploring Money Mindset Shifts
• 42:21 Managing Spending Habits and Boundaries

Transcript

Shelby: 0:09

Hello and welcome to the Confident Sober Women podcast. I'm your guide, shelby John. I'm the mother of three, wife to one and sober since July 1st 2002. As sober women, we have something huge in common, and when we share our lives and our stories with each other, we feel that sense of belonging and connection. So we know we are no longer alone. In this podcast, you will hear real life talk about building confidence and transforming your life beyond recovery. So come on, let's talk, okay. Well, hey there, linda. Thank you so much for joining me today for the Confident Sober Women podcast. I am so excited that you're here and on a topic that is so important but yet also sometimes so difficult to talk about for so many of us. So I'm really glad that we're having this conversation, and I know a lot of people are going to get just so much out of it. So I'm going to turn the mic over to you and let you share a little bit more about your story and then we're going to chat For sure.

Linda: 1:14

Thanks, shelby, it's so great to be here, and thanks for the opportunity to talk about money Because I think, again, like you said, it's one of those things that people are uncomfortable about talking about, Just kind of like, I think, when I first got sober I'm going to be celebrating 11 years in March and at first it was really hard for me to talk about my recovery overall and then, now that you know, I really try to give it the voice, like money, like the voice I give to my recovery overall, because people need to hear about it, people need to talk about it. So that's what I do. I'm a money coach who helps support women in recovery. I focus on financial sobriety. So what that means is just getting financially sober financial recovery, whatever term you want to use for that.

Linda: 2:05

My story, a little bit about my background and how I came to be a financial coach, is that I actually worked as a financial advisor for about 20 years and in that time I would say it was 17 years into my career I got sober and even before, that kind of backing up to childhood like money was always a really hard topic. Money was always a really hard thing and it was one of those things that the energy of it was really uncomfortable all the time. I grew up in a home with two alcoholic parents who got sober when I was growing up, Thank goodness, and what a gift to me. But as I was in my career as a financial advisor, I was investing millions of dollars for people and I was addictively spending money. I was addictively spending money all the time. I was telling people what they should do with their money and I was just a financial disaster. And it was when I was. I had gotten sober and the job itself had was sucking the life out of me, but I was actually.

Linda: 3:23

Once I got sober from from alcohol, I did an addiction transference, which is sometimes really a regular thing. That happens with us in recovery is we look for something else to numb out on. You know, the drink or drugs or drinking aren't there anymore. So I started to completely black out on spending money. I remember one specific shopping trip that I don't remember anything about. It. All I remember is coming home and my husband was like wow, you know, like that's a lot of shopping bags. I didn't even remember being in there. I'd spent over $800 and this was something that I regularly was taking part in. So from there, you know, I financed our home to use it as my wallet.

Linda: 4:13

I committed what I like to call like financial infidelity. I was doing things financially that I was kind of tricking and coercing my husband into, and he didn't have the knowledge of what was really going on. He trusted me. I was a banker, I was a financial advisor. Just sign here and you know, almost losing our home, our cars, everything. And I was on a she Recovers retreat and you know, put that on a credit card. I was on a she Recovers retreat and Dawn and I were sitting there and she said, oh, we're doing she Recovers coaches like you should be a financial coach for us. And I was like, yeah, that's a complete joke, like I'm a financial disaster. And she said to me sometimes you need to teach what you need to learn. And I was like and that hit me and I still get goosebumps when I tell this story because it changed my life and it was like, wow, so I took money coach training.

Linda: 5:12

My first designation was strictly on money behaviors. It didn't even get into the numbers and stuff, which is something that I've learned is a huge tool because of like, we can make budgets and we can look at numbers and we can add them up and everything's good. But if we're buying things to try to make us feel better all the time because we're super unhappy, like budgets aren't going to do anything, like, why are we reaching outside of ourselves to feel better? So the behaviors piece is something I really focus on and then, of course, pairing that with my financial advisor hat and being able to build what I call like spending plans. Most people come to me and budgets feel too restrictive, like tried budgets. They don't work.

Linda: 5:59

So, yeah, we go on to a building a spending plan, looking at behaviors, really understanding why we're doing what we're doing with money, which can be scary. So that's a big piece of my story. I had over and this is always a number that I feel all the things in my body my husband and I were over $130,000 in credit card debt and, as of September 2023, we had paid them off. So it was. I've been working on this for a very long time and what I think is really powerful about my story is that I've done it and like from being someone who was blackout shopping, spending money to, you know having to pay off that debt feels really, really good and I know that brings hope to some people because it feels impossible. And if I can do it and help spread the word of like how to do it, it makes it a lot more accessible and hopeful for people.

Shelby: 7:07

It sure does. This is exactly how it works, right, this is what we're taught that, like when we get well, we're able to spread the message of hope. Exactly like you said. And you know, sometimes we are in the midst of people in our family or our friends or whoever, who just aren't ready to receive what we have, and that's totally fine too, but we just never know when it's going to be useful, right, like you know, you were talking to somebody in your friend group or whatever, and then suddenly, two years from now, that friend has like another friend who she was talking to, and then all of a sudden now she's connecting her to you and we just don't know, and for sure.

Shelby: 7:46

That's why I think that, although anonymity is such a such a nice part of, like a lot of the 12-step programs and such and I believe in that I got sober in and I think that it's very valuable for a lot of reasons there is a piece of us that um I do believe is meant to share, um in a way we feel comfortable with. Like, not everybody wants to share all the gory details of their stories publicly, and that's completely fine, but you can share some things, like you know, I know what it feels like to be so desperate that I just had I felt like I had no way out. Or I know what it feels like to just be so embarrassed that I had to go crawl to my husband and tell him these things. You know, like we don't have to share every single detail for it to still be really impactful. I always like to say that.

Shelby: 8:29

So, yeah, I love that. Thank you so much for sharing so vulnerably. To speaking of that, I do think that it is how it works. People do relate to this. I think in many, many ways we live in a land. If you were, if you live in Americaica I was born in america, I've never lived anywhere else if you live here, it's really the land of the plenty.

Shelby: 8:47

You know, um, I think even if you're a lower income or considered poor in our country, that's significantly better off than many, many places in this world. And um, you know, that's not something I've first had experience with, but I've talked to other friends of mine who've come from other countries and um've told me things like that, you know, and it does make me realize, you know, like our rapport here are just not the same as some other like poor people in in the world. So we live in the land of the plenty. You know there's abundance everywhere. There's food everywhere. There's. There's products. There's dollar stores, there's chachkis, there's's.

Shelby: 9:22

You know there's just stuff everywhere, no matter where you turn, and every single walmart and every single you know gas station. You know there's just so much. Sometimes I go in those gas stations and I'm always like I'm not a big like stuff person, like I don't like to have a lot of stuff around and things, you know. So sometimes I'm just I don't, I don't, that's not just not my, that's not my thing, right? Um, but I'll see these things like on the counters and stuff like who's buying this, like who's buying that stuff, but like people are.

Linda: 9:50

People are right, for sure. Yep, most definitely. And yeah, I bet a lot of the people I work with probably are buying some of that stuff. I don't know what it's like I've heard I I'm in Canada, so gas stations are probably a little bit different here. But yeah, it's that stuff thing that you were talking about.

Linda: 10:09

Right, and when is it enough? When can we just finally be who we are, where we are, and live with what we have? And I think that life is kind of teaching us that right now, in this moment of time of getting back to being like simple, because the cost of food and everything is really something that in my world, people are really struggling with and, um, you know the economies and everything, and so it's one of those things that, um, yeah, it's it's a lot right now, and so really kind of keeping it top of mind and controlling what we can right now. So, yeah, it's one of those things in my world where there's just stuff everywhere and then it's like and the cost of living, and we're just completely living in debt, trying to just get by in life and it can feel impossible to just get by in life and it can feel impossible.

Shelby: 11:07

It certainly can, and it is such an emotional experience. You know the stuff that we're talking about is. I mean, we are kind of simplifying things at times by saying you know stuff or things that are registered or whatever, but it's an emotional experience. There is a dopamine quality to this experience. It's exactly the same as our substance use addiction, right. So like absolutely the same thing that we get. You know I have. I spending wasn't really my thing, really necessarily, but I had once I got sober. I've been sober for kind of a long time and you know I was. Whatever other things can certainly fill in for me that void or that addiction. Right, that's not substances. I'm not going to die from it, at least not right away, but it certainly does have the same qualities. Things like food, um, uh, plenty or not enough, you know I mean both of those are, are, are part of my story and so, um, I can definitely relate to that hit, you know, and you know, just for just to be kind of silly, like, um, you know I was always.

Shelby: 12:00

I was raised as an athlete and so we always were a very, very healthy. I was a marathon runner for 10 years and so it was very rich. I was extremely rigid and regimented with my food. I was weighing, measuring all the stuff for many years and that's fine. That worked whatever for a period of time.

Shelby: 12:17

And then when COVID hit, I was raising three teenagers in our home. That was extremely traumatic. We were in like a sustained trauma for four years, basically in our home. That was extremely traumatic. We were in like a sustained trauma for four years. Basically, that was was horrific. And around that time I started to develop like emotional eating and like I didn't ever have that problem before. So it's very similar to the spending right. But like for me, like in our home is everything is super like not exactly perfect, but it's pretty clean, like there's nothing really here, you know, there's just very clean foods. It's like we eat the same foods every day and that's fine. But then I would get like in my car and like as soon as I got in my car it was like this thing happened. I actually had to like do some EMDR work on this? Like okay, get in the car and be like what, where can I get?

Shelby: 12:58

Like where can I get like Ooh, like what, like it was, like the seeking behavior, like drug, it was all it was. It was terrible and I occasionally that will still happen because it's like it's like that when I leave my home. It's that uncontrolled environment and and it is a dopamine hit.

Linda: 13:15

It's very scary.

Shelby: 13:15

So it's the same thing for people with a spending and you're standing in that register and there's 17 things. You know that's only a dollar or it's two things for a dollar or whatever, and you know suddenly that stuff adds up. And so you know, sometimes it's a blessing that we live in a place that has I don't know. I don't know about Canada. I feel like it's probably similar that we have everything we need you know, everything we need, but then it can be a curse too?

Linda: 13:38

Yeah, it most definitely can, and it's, and it's in the society we're living in. And it's in the society we're living in especially those of us who struggle with spending and want to like it's. There's the social pressures of it, like having certain name brands, looking a certain way, and, especially when you're in recovery, there starts to become that feeling as well of feeling other, and then so you're wanting to fit in with other people and I see that a lot of just like, especially like that name brand stuff and looking a certain way and doing certain things. And when I first got sober and the spending was going bananas for me, it was like, of course I'm going to go to the spa, of course I'm going to go for a weekend away, I'm sober, I'm not drinking anymore, and it was, and that lasted until it didn't right. It was just kind of like I created such a mess, but I gave myself that permission and I think there's a balance that needs to happen Because, yes, I think that when we're in recovery, there needs to be some things that we do partake in, that we treat ourselves with and that kind of thing, but at the same time, there needs to be that balance with it and not going too over the top.

Linda: 14:49

And that's where it can feel a little bit hard and that's where, like I, what I call sober spending is really important, like making intentional decisions with your spending. Planning your spending is so important. I think that, out of anything, planning your spending, really being in conscious, like contact with it, where am I in my spending plan? I think of it as like your spending plans, like your map of like what you want to do with your money. It could be a daily map, it could be a monthly map, whatever you want to look at, because again, the restriction can kind of come in, just like food right, like if you're heavily restricting spending, you're going to go on a spending spree and then so kind of building a spending plan, planning your spending and then, yeah, checking in when am I on the map?

Linda: 15:39

What's going on? Oh, I spent that. What was that about? How was I feeling in that moment? What was going on? Oh, I spent that. What was that about? How was I feeling in that moment? What was going on? And really just kind of checking in with your money. But sometimes we need to do that emotional work first to get to the point where we can even look at our money Because it's like oh, I'm not looking at, I'm not opening that app, I'm not doing that, like, why am I doing that? That feels really scary. It's okay, why is it scary? Let's work on that first.

Shelby: 16:04

Well, I think that one of the things is we can only do so many things at one time, so we can't like try to go on a health journey and also get sober and then also, you know, decide we're going to run a marathon and then also say we're going to, we're going to reduce our debt. Like we kind of have to like back it down and be like for this stage, right now I'm focused on my money and my goal is debt reduction or whatever it is. Save for whatever your goal is, you know, and then maybe in the net, you know, a little bit of time goes by, you get used to it and then you're like, okay, now I'm going to tackle my health and so now I'm going to focus on nutrition or whatever, or movement. But yeah, when we start piling on all these things, um, it's really, it's really not sustainable.

Shelby: 16:44

And that's for sure end up like failing or they have, you know, like you know they can't sound sustainable, and then they so they get down on themselves and it kind of restarts that whole cycle.

Linda: 16:53

Most definitely. Yeah, the shame spiral just hits again, and that's where, a lot of the times, I actually don't recommend that people do a lot of like deep money work, really until they're sober for a little while, because I think, when it comes down to it, making sure that your sobriety is number one.

Shelby: 17:12

Yeah, I think that it's really important to just assess the first things first. Right, that's a good principle that we learned or at least I did. I got, when I got sober in like the 12 steps that's one of the phrases that we use in. We use in in the program because it's it means this right, let's take care of the first things that we need to take care of. They're the most important things and then we can start layering on. We can layer on emotionally too, like let's just take care of getting sober. Like when you get first get sober, or you're like well, I have a problem with substances, or somebody tells you you do, or whatever. You know it's a lot of work just to try to get and stay sober for many, many months, and then you can be like okay, now I can layer in like step work or therapy or whatever, not going to jump into all of it at once. Let's just stay sober one day at a time.

Linda: 18:00

for like a while, and then we layer in other stuff.

Shelby: 18:03

So it's the same thing with money and I can, I can totally see it, because it is overwhelming and it's not really about the money, just like the substance. I mean, that's just kind of like the, the symptom, right. But one of the things that I can't remember I can't remember if you touched on this in your story, but one thing that I've seen, and maybe you've seen this or experienced it too, is I've seen some people, like in my in my life, my personal life and then in work too, who were raised in families where there just really wasn't any money, like they just really were poor, right, lived in a land of just just lack, and so then they kind of kind of get up and out Right and maybe they become successful, they get educated or they get great jobs and they start to become successful. So they're making money and they may not have any education around it. Maybe they don't have, they don't know about savings or 401ks and all that stuff, because that wasn't the language that was being used.

Shelby: 18:54

But this emotional experience and this mindset around money and I really want you to talk about this, this mindset around money that I've seen and people is like I'm never going to have have that experience ever again, nor are my children. And so then it like becomes like the opposite, like then they go well, we're going to get this car because we never had that kind of car, you know, and I'm going to, I'm going to give my kids all this money. Uh, one of my daughters, um, significant other, we had this and we had that, and it was like they were just.

Shelby: 19:28

He was just constantly handing those kids money because, well, I've never, I don't ever want them to feel like I did yeah, I.

Linda: 19:34

I never want them to feel like there's never enough.

Shelby: 19:36

That's actually not going to work out for you, heck, no. So it's that money, it's that mindset piece like that you were raised with. So how does somebody really kind of like tackle that? Because I feel like that actually needs to be first right, like what are your? Beliefs about money.

Linda: 19:52

What do you?

Shelby: 19:53

believe money is? What do you believe it isn't? What does it mean to have a lot, not enough? What is it that you believe? How do you work with people on?

Linda: 20:00

that. Yeah, I think that what I usually do is like we work on what I call their money story and I think that kind of thinking of what's really powerful is thinking of what's your first memory of money and what was the feeling of it. I've had so many people come to me with my parents always thought about money. Money was always stressful. Money was like we never have enough, we can't afford that, we can't afford that, like that constant message all of the time, or them or the parents sitting at the kitchen table with the bills out fighting over money, and that would be like so many people. That's their vision of what money is as a child, right? So, as we know, in our recovery and therapy and all that stuff, like what happens in our childhood really can and does impact our adult life, and so when it comes to that, it's like okay, like exactly that.

Linda: 20:57

What do I think about money? What do I believe about money? And then a really powerful question to ask yourself is who's actually saying that? Like whose voice is that? Is that even mine? Does this even belong to me? And most of the time I say 90% of the time it doesn't belong to you. It's something that you have inherited in conversations. And then I love getting to like the science-y, like when it comes to like trauma and how it's passed down in families and all of that Like the DNA, just like how it gets passed down from person to person, and like there's trauma in there too, right? So then we have grandparents or great-grandparents that lived through the depression and maybe your parents were kids of like living in the depression or just different things that happen historically that then get passed on to your parents like nobody talks about money. It's this thing that like everybody was thrown into.

Linda: 21:59

I would say hardly anybody has been in a home where, like, they talk about money a lot and then so, yeah, that financial literacy there becomes shame. Like why don't I know this? Why, why, why don't I know about money? Why don't I know about a 401k? Why don't I know about savings? I was never taught that. Then it's like so, like so much embarrassment and shame to even talk like that. Right when? That's where I want to like get rid of that stigma of talking about it, because if you bring it up to your friend, how great would it be for them to say like, yeah, I have no idea what people are talking about when they're talking about it either, Like what are we doing?

Shelby: 22:38

Yeah, I love the idea of doing that money story. It's kind of like an initial activity when you're working with somebody, or any of us can do this right. It's just to be able to really kind of identify. And I have done a little bit of work on this because, although the spending wasn't really a total issue for me, some of the money mindset stuff was and I was actually I was raised in a family, we were my parents, my family was a business owner. It was fine. They were like we were fired, we had everything we needed and most things we wanted, and my husband happens to be an accountant and he doesn't work in an accounting firm, but he's like extremely, um, you know, financially literate and that's actually something that gets talked about.

Shelby: 23:16

That's pretty much all anybody talks about around here. So it's not great either. But I was always because of the because I guess maybe the way we were raised it wasn't necessarily a bad thing, but something in me made it bad, maybe, like, maybe it was my own addiction side or just not really being emotionally mature, I guess, and then also my husband's style. And it's not like he's bad, it's just that he's just very, you know, wanting to just. He just wants to say he just wants us to be okay later and I love that about him. But I was constantly that girl was like we can't afford that.

Linda: 23:49

That's too expensive.

Shelby: 23:50

Like not necessarily always outwardly, but sometimes always instead, oh, I can't do that. And so I I finally identified that or somebody. I came across somebody like you probably, who started to talk about the language we use and I was like, okay, I didn't necessarily need to take any necessarily real action financially, although it's never a bad thing to do that. I needed to change my language. So I started to really notice, like when I was using words like that like expensive or we can't afford that, and I started to challenge myself on that and I would say things like that like expensive or we can't afford that, and I and I started to challenge myself on that and I would say things like that's actually just not true, like we can afford that, but we use all of our resources for something else.

Shelby: 24:29

Right, yeah, I love that we used our resources to, for my kids went to private school, so, like our kid, we pay a lot of tuition, so sure, we could afford to go on two gigantic vacations a year probably, but we chose to do something else with that money and so when I started doing that a little bit more and I started doing that with my kids a little, who are all young adults now. Like I remember one time we were out to dinner and somebody called me and said, like can you stop and pick us up something? And I was like, oh no, there's stuff at home, or whatever. And they're like what do you mean? We don't have any money, or whatever. I said we. I said we used our resources for other things.

Linda: 25:04

Yeah, nice, I love that.

Shelby: 25:10

Yeah, so I'm trying. So it's for me, but it's probably benefiting other people, because I catch myself in that a lot and it's not true.

Shelby: 25:14

It's not a true statement, you know, and we all have choices, so we all get to decide what we spend our money on too. And also, this is a values question. I mean, this is a deeper part of the story, but this is a values question. To us, education is extremely valuable, so we spend a tremendous amount of money on education. Some people might not have that, but they would rather have adventure or travel or a nicer home or a pool and like so great, so you get to do that, right. Um, so we all have. We all have choices.

Shelby: 25:42

My oldest one, I remember saying one time when she's young, she's like I'm just the kind of girl that always needs to have my nails done. I just know I need to have my. I said that's fine. I said that's cool to know that. I said you know that about yourself. I said you're just going to need to make sure you always have that as a line item in your plan, like great, and then you won't probably go to Starbucks three times a month because you'll need that money for nails. Yes, we just have to make a choice like you can have that, but then you can't.

Linda: 26:07

We can't do all of the things. Yes, most definitely. And it's again. There's such that balance right and having that awareness and really thinking about it. Because we live in this plastic world right now where we're just tapping stuff. Right, we're just tapping stuff. Most of us I don't use credit cards very often, because it's still a slippery slope for me, because it can so easily add up and it all of a sudden is like how is there like to 2500 on my credit card, like we were using it for gas to get quote unquote points, like this system is not working. It's like, so I don't use them a lot, but we're just tapping and we're not actually like seeing how much is going through our bank accounts and that sort of thing. So, and then all of a sudden it's like I don't have money to pay those bills, like, and a lot of people these days are spending money even before they get it. So it's yeah yeah.

Shelby: 27:02

So first you do the story, which I love. I'm just attached to some money mindset work and then you mentioned, like the budget, pros and cons. I guess you know like it's pros and cons to both. Right, it sounds like it is nice, I think, to have an understanding about like every single one of your line items. Right? So you have, you know, rent, you have car, you have groceries, daycare, whatever all the bills that you have to pay. That is your budget and so it's helpful to have that like deep understanding because, like you said, I mean I don't think a lot of people have a lot of and again, I don't really think it's our fault, because at least here in our country they don't. This is not a school thing and it's a shame. It should be a financial literacy class in all the schools. It is not. Why is that not a part of school?

Shelby: 27:46

I know, so they should know like. And then silly things they're not silly, but things like insurance, you know like. You know we have life insurance and homework, all the things like. You forget about some of those like other bills, but they are a part of your life and so then it's like easy to not have sight into that if you don't see them all on your paper.

Shelby: 28:05

But then you said like sometimes that creates feelings of restriction, so you usually like to have a spending plan. Can you say a little bit more like how do you work with somebody on, like at the very beginning stages, like what are your first steps that somebody could literally kind of take away maybe consider doing now?

Linda: 28:20

Yeah, I think that when it comes to it like what I think of a spending plan is is what you're choosing to spend your money on, and we have fixed expenses in life where we actually don't have a choice right, like things like rent or mortgage or whatever, right, but then it really comes down to you know, how am I spending money? What does this look like? Because a lot of people will be like I have no idea where my money goes, and that's the one thing I hear all the time and so really kind of, when I think of spending plan, it just feels like it creates more of a choice than like budget. Right, the word budget is just so triggering for people. So it's kind of like a spending plan is planning your money, planning your spending and just putting a little bit of a twist on it, so like it doesn't feel that restriction. But even then, like really kind of like what are my fixed expenses? How much do I make every month? How much do I have left over? Oh, no wonder I don't have any money.

Linda: 29:20

I'm spending like $1,500 on DoorDash or whatever, and so and that's actually what I call it like fixed expenses and then variable expenses, so gas, groceries, eating out that kind of thing that you have to like intentionally plan it or else it can get out of control really quickly.

Linda: 29:40

So it's one of those things I know in the States, one of the apps that I recommend to use it's so different between Canada and the US now for apps that people like for budgeting in the States you guys have so many, but the one I recommend is called Rocket Money, and so it is a very easy way to like if you want to put your accounts in there, build a spending plan aka budget in there, and it can like help you track your spending. It does it automatically, but checking in with that consciously every day and having just like I call it a money date, you know at least once a week, kind of like okay, where am I, how are things going, how have my emotions tied into my spending this week? What felt good, what didn't, you know. Really checking in with that stuff I think is really important because planning is so important. That's why I call it a spending plan.

Shelby: 30:37

I agree with that. Planning is so important and it doesn't need to be fixed. This call it a spending plan. I agree with that. Planning is so important and it doesn't need to be fixed. This isn't written in stone. It can be fluid, it's like a plan. And then we, we become flexible. You know, somebody gets ill, or you have a big house repair, I mean things come up, we get this, but you have at least an outline, an outline, and so then you know, some months might be great. You're like, oh wow, we actually like saved a bunch of money on like groceries because we had, we were invited to things, you know. Or you just end up getting a bunch of coupons or whatever we did, you know. So, okay, I love that. It's kind of like when I talk about exercise, because that's a big part of my program as well, and just like mental health in general, but exercise is not a.

Shelby: 31:16

I always use the word movement, you know, because exercise can be very triggering for people, and especially a lot of women just don't like to do that, and so they hear that and they're like forget that, or they automatically assume it's a gym, you know, but like movement, really, anything you want it to be, you can be riding in your yard with your dog or riding the bike in your neighborhood.

Shelby: 31:35

It's just moving your body. So it's the same concept like switching to language to make it a little bit more sustainable and accessible and feel better. You mentioned the feelings around it and I you know I understand feelings, I get it. I'm just curious how, like maybe what you see or how you help people to like notice that. Do you like give them instructions around, like when you're doing the plan, notice how you're feeling or where you feel in your body, or like when you're out and about. Notice Is that how you work with them?

Linda: 32:03

For sure, and there's definitely some like I'm a big fan of like the word pause, like practicing the pause, like pausing and like yeah, that's somatic work, that that we have to do overall in our lives and in recovery to try to be as present as possible, because with money we can dissociate so easily Like honestly, like I would say people most of the time dissociate when it comes to money, conversations, making decisions with money, and sometimes it takes a while. So I'm a really big believer on like habit stacking of like what's working for you already right now on your recovery. Let's kind of build on that. So it would be for a lot of people in recovery.

Linda: 32:48

We have like morning routines. So that would be like prayer, meditation, you know different things, like that journaling, and then it's like okay, like let's get really like into our bodies, feel how it's feeling, and then maybe part of our morning routine, we can have a little money date with ourselves and sit at our meditation table and open up our app and see like oh, how did spending go yesterday, what do I plan to spend today? And then like really kind of you're already in that relaxed zone of things you already know how to do and you know, make you feel good, and starting to tie those in, because we have so many unconscious messages that physically show up in our body with money that we're like we stiffen up or again we dissociate and we don't even know what's going on.

Shelby: 33:36

Yeah, you use that word dissociate and that really grabbed me for sure. Like why do you think that is the case? Like what is happening with that?

Linda: 34:02

And it's just and for me, like I grew up in a home where, like, there was a lot of yelling and fighting about money, so like when I think, when I used to think about doing money, stuff like I would be frozen in time. It would just bring back all of that baggage that isn't ours and I. One of the things I love to say is like when people come to me, I envision them wearing like this really heavy backpack full of river rocks, right, and I can actually physically hear it Like they're just exhausted, they're frustrated, they're shameful, they're embarrassed, they're angry, like all of the feelings. And as they start to tell me what's going on, I can hear like the rocks coming out of their backpacks, right, like I can hear like, literally, that baggage start to, you know, not have that power anymore. So it's yeah, money is heavy, it can feel really heavy, yeah.

Shelby: 34:50

I agree with you and I and I've seen it too and I totally get it what you're saying. And one thing that I've, that I've, I've kind of learned and maybe heard through you know, that I've, I've kind of learned and maybe heard through, you know, social media or whatever these sources or people, gurus I follow is probably around shifting our, our language and our mindset. But really a little bit deeper is an understanding of what actually money actually is. And I I admittedly, was totally I never. This never came up for me and I was like, oh, like that, it's really we that we assign like a value to it.

Shelby: 35:24

Value, yes, dollars, but also just like a whole, nother value, when, honestly, it's literally just a means to an act, like it's just a commodity right, that's the right word. Like this, how people say it, like it's not a, it's not a thing, it's just I need to buy potatoes and I have here's the two2 for the potatoes and you're going to give me the potato. There's nothing else about it. And also, I think this relates to jobs too, and I don't know how you work with this at all, about people around their careers or their jobs. It's like people, I think, tend to do this with their jobs too. They need sometimes certain kinds of jobs or status or whatever, or they have to love their job or their past has to be their passion, when really like a job is really what we just all we do to make money. That's all it is, it's nothing else. It's not who you are, it's not an identity. I mean, if you happen to like it also, then you win.

Linda: 36:18

You know, like good for you, but really what we do to make money, yeah, yeah, and a lot of people have the definition of what their money looks like. Is defining who they are as people? And so yeah, exactly so, like my, like, my identity was like debt and like and I used to spend money like it was mine. It was like oh, I have $50,000 available on a home equity line of credit Great. But in a different light and in a different scenario and it was rough. Yeah, for a while. Yeah.

Shelby: 37:08

It is this one in particular, I think, is amazingly how, how just the same they are.

Shelby: 37:15

You know, yes, I think, food, I guess too, but this one I feel like even more, is just more that dopamine and the shame spiral and like because, again, like if you were raised and like and I can see how that identity gets put on right Cause they're like Ooh, you were raised in this family where there wasn't anything Right and then you became a something and now you're like I have stuff, and so of course, that is like that small, insecure, like childlike part of yourself is going to rear its ugly head. Often, whenever you feel like you're less than or you don't have enough or lack, gets triggered. And so now you're suddenly the guy that's paying for everybody while we're out to dinner, or you're behind all the kids' snowballs on the team and you're like dude, you don't have to be so flashy, it's not that big of a deal, but it's fulfilling that emotional need. It is so big, um this is loaded.

Shelby: 38:06

I'm so glad that you were doing the work that you're doing, because, I mean, this is way more than we can, obviously, you know, really tackle too much of in a short time. But the work you're doing does, and that's that's. It's so critical, because and what you said before too, I think is really important that I'm learning again a little bit more. I guess in my older years. I don't know, is that people just don't know stuff. No, and it's not their fault. You know, like it's whether it's money or around nutrition or whatever.

Shelby: 38:32

I remember people saying maybe you probably hear this a lot too like when you're creating your courses and different things. Like we have to remind ourselves that, like we're an expert in our area, you know. So that when we're talking, like it's very easy as a clinician for me to be like, oh yeah, you know what validation means. Like everybody knows that. Like do you see it on Instagram or whatever, and you're like they probably don't. They don't understand.

Shelby: 38:51

They've heard the word, but they might not know what that means, and so to me it's common sense, second nature. This is not even a thought. I know how to do that. Same for you. But somebody else might be like wow, yeah, I don't, and so we have to dumb ourselves's a reminder that I I have been really having a lot lately. It's just like a lot of people don't know things and it's again, it's not because there's something wrong with them, it's just that they didn't come across their path or it just no one was talking about it, and but the thing that's great about our country and yours, like you can know it you know the internet, so like you, literally can decide like, oh, actually I want to become more financially literate.

Shelby: 39:32

And whether you call Linda or you find somebody or you just go to Google and you're like what does that even mean? Like we can know all the. We can literally know anything yes, literally know anything in this day and age. So, unfortunately, the shame is very real and it can keep us from doing that, it can keep us from going to know the thing. But what I want everyone to know and hear and feel is like you can know anything, you want anything. You can sit in a public library and Google search to your heart's content for two hours and learn anything you want in the whole world. Now.

Linda: 40:06

For sure yeah.

Linda: 40:07

That is a brilliant thing, yes, and I think too, like I have a podcast. Brilliant thing, yes, and I think too, like I have a podcast. Um, financial sobriety school and I get I talk a lot about, because sometimes you're not going to find people who are talking about, like, the emotional piece with money, and I think that's where, like, there's two sides of it. Yes, there's that we can look it up and we can figure out like, oh, this is how I'm going to make a budget. But then there's also that part of us, like you talked about, that inner child kind of thing, right, like, how do we get in touch with that of, like, what we really need? And I think, like and I have so many episodes that really get into there's so much free stuff out there to be able to get into, like what's really going on. And we're so lucky in this day and age that we have things like you with your podcast and just like doing the work that we're doing. The world needs more of it, that's for sure.

Shelby: 41:00

I think so too, and I'm thrilled to be in this time period because of that. And so sometimes I think and the emotional piece is not no issue is immune from that, so that's always a part of every issue, whether it's food. So like when we start doing that, like oh, she's just really bad with money, or oh, she just can't, like she's just unhealthy or lazy or whatever these things that we judgments we make, or when we see other people or we hear these stories, there's always an emotional component behind it, always, and so you can't do much work without getting doing that.

Shelby: 41:36

You know that has to be the emotional component of your money story. What did you learn about it? Whose? Whose values are you? Are you picking up and making your own now, which maybe they are, and that's fair, but what are your core values? What are your most important things to you in your life? That goes with your money, and so maybe you really are a very simple person and you just want to live a very basic life. You'd like service, you want to give a lot away. There's just very things that maybe that's very important to you and so you get to do that. You know today, but maybe that's not where you came from, you. You came from like a complete opposite, and so, but getting really good counsel on that kind of stuff, I think is obviously the very most important part of all of this.

Shelby: 42:18

And then we get into, like, building the spending plan. And then, lastly, I just wanted to see about a couple of things we can for sure. Yeah, one is you mentioned that you don't use credit cards anymore. Um, one is you mentioned that you don't use credit cards anymore. I totally get that also, but I'm I'm wondering if you really, if you, if you believe that that's the right choice for everyone, or if it's just one strategy, um, because there are benefits, like we use them and we pay them off every month, but we use them for things, um, for benefits, um. And then also, how do you help, support people? So so they're doing this, they're already down the track, but you have to live like we, like you don't have to go on vacation and like buy a fancy cars, but you do need to go to the grocery store or have you do need to buy things, yeah, yeah. So like, how do you so those two things, like how do you kind of work with people in a very practical way tips, tools, tricks on those?

Linda: 43:12

things For sure. I think that when it comes to the credit cards, it's just something I do for myself and so I know what works for me now and what doesn't. So I know that if people can responsibly use credit cards and they're doing, and they're able to plan it and you know, keep track of it and really understand what's going on all the power to you, because there can be benefits to stuff like I have credit cards, I just don't do like my daily spending on it the way I do. It is actually like I have a bank account for like my fixed expenses and then I have a bank account for my variable expenses, so then that makes it really easy for me. When then I have a bank account for my variable expenses, so then that makes it really easy for me. When I look at my bank account for my variable expenses, it's like okay, this is how much I have for my gas, groceries, all my incidental like coffees, things like that. So that's my system that works.

Linda: 44:08

I find a system that works for people. My system might not work for everybody, so like, let's I meet you where you are. What's what's working? Again, that habit stacking, what? If that's working for you, let's keep that as a tool and keep going with it. Yeah, so, and yeah with the buying stuff like do you mean kind of like, if they don't have the money to buy stuff, like that kind of scenario?

Shelby: 44:34

No, I just well. First of all, just to finalize what you're saying yes, I think everybody should find what they want, because sometimes like cash is great too, like totally. When we were younger we really had like not much Right, so we worked on a cash system.

Linda: 44:46

Yes, love cash systems we had allowance.

Shelby: 44:48

You know, like every week we both got a certain amount and that was for, like our, I want to go to lunch with my friend, or I'm going to go to Starbucks, or whatever. Yeah, I think that's great Cause it does kind of help me like, ooh, I can't go to lunch four times, but I, you know, i- have to manage it right A little bit.

Shelby: 45:05

It's kind of like it's not play money it's obviously real money but like it is a good system for a lot of people. And sometimes an envelope system with cash might actually be like this is your money for groceries this month, that's it Agreed. Or entertainment, that's all you have. And we would say, like when this is out, we're done, like that's all we have, so that that I think that's great, finding a system where it works. And what I meant was is like management of. So, for example, even though I don't necessarily know if I have like a, I would qualify myself as like a spending addict or anything. But we are extremely spend conscious, or we're always, you know, and so we're always trying, we're very aware. So I don't, I don't go in stores, right, I don't. I don't have any business being in Target.

Shelby: 45:51

Anything I need in Target if anything I need in Target, I can buy on Amazon where I can see I need batteries. Here's my batteries. I don't need batteries, plus two candles and six placemats and oh, I need some face cream and oh, now let's look at the bathing suits. Like for me, like that's a strategy, and I want to talk to my kids about like you don't need to be in those stores, like I'd call me, like I need to go to tj maxx. I'm like, no, you don't.

Shelby: 46:18

Yeah, yeah, it's like what are you? I mean, if you're saying I have an event this weekend and I need to have a suit or a new dress, and I'm looking for the specific dress with these shoes to go to this event and I need to go to TJ Maxx or Ross or wherever you're going to look for Macy's, great, you have a plan like I'm going to buy this thing and like, right, be able to stick to that thing. I feel like that can work. But don't you feel like? I just feel like we do have to buy things we got. We consume, yeah, consume a lot of food and product.

Shelby: 46:47

Yeah, I was just thinking like how do you help your people do that without getting involved?

Linda: 46:53

Yeah, and I think, too like for myself, what I had to do is I had to definitely put boundaries. I think money boundaries are really important. So things like going into Target, like Target is some of store and TJ Maxx home goods like over in the States that people talk to me about constantly, it's just like I go into Target for one thing and I'm getting all these things. So like sometimes we do have to kind of like cut ourselves off of those things and be like I can't go into Target, like it's just not safe for me in there right now. And there there was a time for myself I wouldn't go into like a home goods type store here in Canada it's called HomeSense, and I had to for myself. I wouldn't go into like a home goods type store here in Canada it's called HomeSense, and I had to say like I can't go into Winners and HomeSense, like that's my, that's my drug of choice, like I go in there and it's so beautiful and all the colors and you just like are, so you just want to like be this person that has a home that looks exactly like everything that's in this store. So yeah, sometimes we have to like really again, it's that choice, that planning and then. So I think like meal like, not meal delivery, but like grocery delivery, is one of those things that I definitely recommend, or grocery pickup, so then you don't have that fee attached to that, because then you're actually not going in there and getting all the things right. You're actually going in there and like going online being super intentional.

Linda: 48:17

I'm big on meal planning and I call it like menu, because meal planning can feel triggering for people with disordered eating. But like plan your menu for the week, what are you gonna make? Shop from your cupboards first, like what can you use in your cupboards and then make a list and then do like a grocery pickup and go and do it that way and yeah, like kind of like taking that pressure off. Taking that pressure off of going into that store and grocery stores can be triggering too. Like I love like all the. If there's new stuff, I I'm like big on like good, healthy eating and if there's new things, I'm like a kid in a candy store in there. Sometimes it's just like, yeah, I think meal deliverer, food delivery, is really powerful for stuff like that.

Shelby: 49:00

Yeah, I do pick up and it's the best for multiple reasons, exactly.

Shelby: 49:04

One of them, but for me it's a lot of. It's just convenience too, but I agree, because you are in there and it's you can't help it. You're like, wow, look at these strawberries, they look so beautiful and you're like we're not even going to use these, especially with produce and things like it's, it's waste. You know, it's actually our produce, it's very expensive and so if you waste that, that's just money. You just throw it away, you know. And so right, like being extremely intentional about meal planning or whatever, whatever language you like to use around that, and preparation around like when am I going to be we?

Shelby: 49:35

I did this when my kids were little, just because, for my own sanity, um, because we were we. They were all athletes and we were out all the time. My husband was out a lot and I would be like, okay, what nights is everybody home for dinner? Like, what night are we doing? What night is a crock pot?

Shelby: 49:50

And I had it printed on like a calendar from work or whatever, because that's what helped me like make sure I was like managing all the things um, appropriately and try to reduce our waste, because we do see the stuff in the store, we do want to try it and it does look good and and it probably is good, you know, but, like, if you're not going to be home to consume the products, like you're just throwing that lot of dollars on the road. So, yeah, I love that and yeah, I just think a lot of it has to become a very intentional and just a lot of awareness. Those stores, for me, like and again, I'm not even a person that, like, does feel like I have like a super big spending, like addiction necessarily, but you can, can't, you don't have to like they're, just they're, they're on purpose, design them, they're designed to pull you like.

Shelby: 50:37

My mom says all the time like I would say like several times a week she's like I'm going to home goods. I'm like mom, you don't need. Like. Like you don't need to go to home, goods, there's nothing, you don't need anything there. You're 70 years old. Like like your house is beautiful, you're fine. Like Anyway.

Shelby: 50:53

And it's not, and it's like a lie to ourselves that we're like we're just going to walk around and just like entice ourselves with these things and and so I guess in that same vein, I'm like we have to find other things to fulfill that Right, so like there's a lot of things we can do with that, time For sure.

Linda: 51:07

Yeah.

Shelby: 51:15

You can be outside, you know you could start, you could do crafts at home, you could be reading, you could be, you know, playing with your dogs or talking to your friends or whatever. But I think sometimes it's the real practical choices to find replacements for these activities. It's like smokers, you know, like we're in the car, like you have to find another activity that's going to replace that one, so that you can maintain sobriety.

Linda: 51:33

So true, yeah, that's's a big, big point for sure. Yeah, because a lot of times we're shopping at a board and boredom, we're picking up our phone and we're gonna go on social media. There's ads, like people picking up their phones is like a trigger these days and really being intentional with our phones, taking apps off, deleting credit cards from our apps, like all of that stuff, because we get one ad on Instagram or TikTok or anything and we're down a hole that we're not climbing out of very quickly. Yeah.

Shelby: 52:00

Linda, this has been so fabulous. I know we probably talk a whole nother hour because this topic is so big and so important, so I really appreciate your work and your time here. I know my audience is going to love it. How do they get ahold of you if they?

Linda: 52:11

want to is going to love it. How do they get ahold of you if they want to? Yeah, absolutely. My website is lyndaparmarcom. I have an Instagram, lyndaparmarmoneycoach, and also my podcast is called Financial Sobriety School Wonderful.

Shelby: 52:23

I'll make sure I link to all those in the show notes below and thank you so much for your time. It's just been awesome. Thanks for having me. Yeah, awesome Thanks for having me. Yeah, thank you for joining me for this week's episode of Confident Sober Women. If you enjoyed this conversation, hit the subscribe button above so you won't miss any upcoming episodes. And, hey, if you really loved it, leave me a review. You can learn more about the sober freedom inner circle membership at wwwshelbyjohncoachingcom. Forward slash inner circle. See you next time.