Transforming Your Recovery: Overcoming Perfectionism's Grip

Dr. Vanessa Klugman shares her powerful 10-year recovery story, revealing how perfectionism and people-pleasing led to prescription drug addiction that cost her medical license. Discover the evidence-based tools she used to transform her inner critic into self-compassion and build a thriving life coaching practice.

What You'll Learn

• Why perfectionism can be a dangerous form of self-sabotage 
• The connection between achievement-based love and addiction 
• Three powerful tools to quiet your inner critic: CBT, meditation, and self-compassion 
• How to practice the life-changing "self-compassion break" technique 
• Why struggling is part of the human experience (and how to embrace it) 
• The difference between mindfulness meditation and other types 
• How to rebuild your identity after losing everything

Key Takeaways

"Addiction is the solution, not the problem" - Vanessa explains how substances become coping mechanisms for deeper issues like perfectionism, poor boundaries, and people-pleasing.

The self-compassion break has three parts:

1. Mindfulness - Notice you're struggling
2. Self-kindness - Offer yourself compassion
3. Common humanity - Remember you're not alone

Guest Bio

Dr. Vanessa Klugman is a physician turned recovery coach who specializes in helping people overcome self-sabotaging habits, including perfectionism, procrastination, and addiction. After losing her medical license due to prescription drug addiction, she rebuilt her life using evidence-based practices and now coaches clients nationwide.

Resources Mentioned

• Tara Brach - Radical Acceptance podcast and books
• Kristin Neff - Self-Compassion research and practices
• RAIN meditation technique 
• 12-step recovery programs 
• Mindfulness-based self-compassion courses

Connect with Dr. Vanessa Klugman

Website: resiliencerecoverycoaching.com
Instagram: @resiliencerecoverycoaching
Facebook: Resilience Recovery Coaching

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Vanessa Klugman
• 4:15 Vanessa's Addiction and Downfall
• 9:30 Rebuilding Life Through Mindfulness
• 18:08 Self-Compassion as a Recovery Tool
• 27:50 The Power of Meditation Practice
• 40:15 Finding Resources and Closing Thoughts

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Well, hey there, sober ladies, Thanks for joining me today for the Confident Sober Women podcast. I'm so excited today to share my conversation with Vanessa Klugman. She is a physician and a woman in long-term recovery and she's also a coach for people who want to change their thinking patterns. She established a practice called Resilience Recovery and she focuses on positive psychology and using her work both as a physician and her education, as well as in her recovery, to help people change their lives and reflect their unique strengths and values. Our conversation was a reflection of that. We talked a lot about our internal thinking patterns, both when we were in active addiction and now as recovered women, and what we did to change that. She shared in a very personal and intimate way her story it's pretty dramatic, like a lot of us have and also what she has been doing since then to rewrite that story, to change those thinking patterns, to combat the perfectionism which I know, as women, so many of us struggle with. So I want you to grab that big glass of water and or your favorite mocktail and enjoy this conversation with Vanessa. If you like what you hear, make sure you scroll down on your platform, Make sure you review and rate the podcast. It does help for other women to find us and build our Confident Sober Women community. Have a great day.

Speaker 1: 1:51

Hello and welcome to the Confident Sober Women podcast. I'm your guide, Shelby John. I'm the mother of three, wife to one and sober since July 1st 2002. As sober women, we have something huge in common, and when we share our lives and our stories with each other, we feel that sense of belonging and connection, so we know we are no longer alone. In this podcast, you will hear real life talk about building confidence and transforming your life beyond recovery. So come on, let's talk.

Speaker 1: 2:23

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Speaker 2: 3:28

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Speaker 1: 3:36

Is Neurofeedback Right For you? Together, we'll create the calm, confident future you that you deserve. That's wwwshelbyjohncom. Take the first step towards training your brain for lasting change. Well, hey there, Vanessa. Thank you so much for joining me today for the Confident Sober Women podcast. I'm so glad that you're here, and I know my audience is going to love enjoying this conversation and all the things that you have to offer. So I'm gonna turn the mic over to you. Let you share a little bit more about your story, and then we're going to chat.

Speaker 2: 4:09

Well, thanks so much for having me. I'm pretty. One of my missions is reducing stigma around addiction, so this is one of the ways I get to do that by telling my story. So my story I'm going to try not to go back to too many details. I'm a physician and I came into recovery 10 years ago. My anniversary was this week and that was June of 2015.

Speaker 2: 4:41

And I always say I came into recovery from an unlivable life because I was buying into beliefs that did not serve me, and my beliefs really were that I was only as worthy as how much I accomplished and how much I did for everyone around me, and that led me to living on this hamster wheel where I was constantly pushing myself, proving myself, perfecting myself, while I never felt like I was good enough or I was doing enough, and that led that led to pretty severe generalized anxiety. So I ended up having a panic attack when I was about 39. And even though I was a doctor, I was on the couch, my heart was racing and I thought I was dying, and I was diagnosed with generalized anxiety then and started on medications for anxiety. But looking back on it now I can see that that anxiety was a result of the unbelievably high expectations I had on myself. To be a perfect person. I had to be the perfect mother, the perfect wife, the perfect daughter, the perfect friend, the perfect doctor, and it was just too much and unsustainable. So for a number of years I just would be. You know, I was switched from one anxiety medication to another anxiety medication and a number of years after that I broke my arm and was prescribed Vicodin and I immediately got a tremendous sense of relief from the anxiety. So the Vicodin actually worked more for me for anxiety than it did for pain, and I realized that I was using it because I had a frozen shoulder. And so I was given many prescriptions for a lot of Vicodin and I realized, whoa, I have an addiction. I'm using this not for the pain, but I'm using this for anxiety relief and helping me cope with life. So I told my husband I stopped using the Vicodin, I went through a physical withdrawal and I decided that was it. I'm done, I'm never going to get addicted again.

Speaker 2: 6:41

But about six years later the anxiety started increasing tremendously. I was I think it was, you know taking care of aging parents. My job as a physician had become very, very difficult with the electronic medical records and insurance companies and the demands on physicians. That was so different than the career I entered. So I was getting burnt out at work. My oldest two daughters were in college and I was missing them so much and I was trying to wean myself off one of my anxiety medications that I had heard had side effects and it ended up that I had this like huge escalation in anxiety and was prescribed Vicodin again at that particular point for implants that I had in my mouth and of course it gave me that immediate relief in the anxiety.

Speaker 2: 7:33

But I had no way to get it at that point because they only gave me 20 pills and I had in my mind that I really needed Vicodin to relieve my anxiety. So I went outside of my ethical values and I took Vicodin out of a pill bottle in a patient's home that I visited. I used to do home visits and it turned out that her son was a DEA agent and they suspected I was doing this and so after I, after about a year, they set up a sting and I visited her house and they put the bike on the kitchen table instead of the bathroom. I took some pills out of them. I left the apartment and I was surrounded by DA agents, so in that moment the pedestal of perfection I placed myself on came crashing down. No one in my life had the faintest clue that this is what I was doing. People knew I was struggling with anxiety, but they didn't know that this was what was going on, and so it was devastating.

Speaker 2: 8:37

It was the most traumatic day of my life, and I really thought I was going to be able to go back to practice medicine the next week, which was I was in tremendous denial. My medical license was suspended. I went into our patient treatment program, entering the program thinking I wasn't an addict, and leaving the program understanding that I wasn't. I was an addict. I had had. I wasn't using tremendous numbers of the pills, but it was the fact that I was using them despite adverse consequences, and using them to cope with life, um, and not not face life on its own terms, um. And so I left that treatment program, really unsure of what I was going to do. Right, I had been a doctor my whole life. It had been part of my identity.

Speaker 2: 9:30

I decided I was going to be a doctor when I was six, and so this was like a huge void in my life and I had to figure out what was my way forward. What was I going to do? So at that point I really threw myself into trying to figure out ways to cope with anxiety that were not medication based, and I found mindfulness. I joined a mindfulness summit and I learned about the practice of meditation and I was like, oh, this is good because I'm all about science. And I learned about neuroplasticity and I was like, wow, we can change our brains. That's incredible. I didn't know we could change our brains when we were adults. Okay, I'm going to try meditation. And I sat in meditation and I practiced meditating and I saw how I had always been running away from the present moment, how I could not sit still in the moment. I also saw how my emotions were constantly changing, that I didn't have to change them, but that they changed by themselves. So I learned very valuable lessons from that and then, as part of it, being a physician in recovery, I was required to attend 12-step programs. So I attended that. That was part of my recovery for a couple of years until I at some point made a decision that I was not going to go back to practice medicine and I was going to become a, I wanted to make meaning out of what had happened to me. So I trained as a life coach with a specialty in recovery and started my own coaching practice.

Speaker 2: 11:02

At that point, about eight years ago, I would say like in terms of recovery there's.

Speaker 2: 11:09

So I truly believe recovery is, you know, I think actually addiction is the solution, not the problem, right, and so for sustained recovery, I think we have to really identify what are the problems and how do we?

Speaker 2: 11:23

And then usually many of them, and for me I would say perfectionism, a really loud inner critic, really poor ability to set boundaries, which came at people pleasing Like these were the problems that I had to address in my recovery, and I went about it in many different ways. You know, as I did the mindfulness, I learned self-compassion, I learned internal family systems, how to work with various parts of ourselves and approach various parts of ourselves. I developed, I had, I created my own group of physicians that meet on Sunday evenings who are in recovery. So community, I think, is a really important part of recovery too. I got a certificate in positive psychology because I wanted to learn about what helps people flourish, and so I did that and I learned about, you know, focusing on our strengths and our values, and so there have been many, many facets to my recovery. So that's me in a nutshell, my recovery in a nutshell.

Speaker 1: 12:28

Thank you so much for sharing all that. And wow, what a story. You know sometimes, I know, you know each of us has our own stories in there. A big deal to us. But sometimes when we share them and I know I do, I know I forget sometimes, like the drama, right, that other people experience when they're hearing our stories. And so that is a lot, I mean, and and such a big consequence to your lifestyle, to your livelihood.

Speaker 1: 12:56

You know your profession because, as a direct result of your addiction, I had a similar experience as well, not quite as much, but similar, and it's a big deal, you know. And then at the time, we, you know, because we're sucked into our own self centered addiction and we don't, we don't know that, we don't see it, you know, we don't, I don't know about you, but you know I could spend a lot of my time when I was in the middle of that justifying you know why I wasn't doing something wrong or why I didn't have a problem. And you know, watching those kinds of things and hearing that years later is so helpful, I think, because you're like wow, that is so far removed from like reality, right?

Speaker 2: 13:34

Yeah, absolutely yeah. Yeah. I think I was well when I was caught in that. I was in complete denial, right. I didn't think I had a problem at all. I thought I was just coping with life and I was just manipulating life to cope with it.

Speaker 1: 13:49

Yeah, and also, you know I'm not hurting anybody else, I'm just doing my thing Like it's fine, I'm still doing my work, I'm raising my kids, and you know we are the best at intellectualizing and rationalizing all of these things and we're master manipulators, you know. And we just don't see any of that when we're in active addiction. It takes all of that away from us and we also don't have a conscience. You know, I know I didn't.

Speaker 1: 14:16

And so when I got, you know, when I got sober for a long after, for a little while, you know that comes back and it's such a, it's such a weird and an amazing blessing in the beginning, when you're like, whoa, I had a conscience and something would happen, and I'd be like, well, I can't, I can't do that, or I can't walk out of the store without paying for that. Or, you know, I don't even. You know, like one time I went to BJ's and I was unloading my car and you know, I don't know if you have those big stores in your area, but you just take everything and put it in your car and I was unloading the cart and there was something in there that I hadn't paid for and I was like, oh gosh, I didn't, it was like a bottle of conditioner thing. And I think in my other day I would have just been like well, whatever you know, like that's their fault, but like I couldn't do it, like I couldn't do it.

Speaker 2: 14:57

Yeah, yeah, fundamentally changes. Yeah yeah, the honesty is so different, like the ability you just learn and that I learned very much from the 12-step program, I would say, is the importance of honesty and, yeah, it just feels like you're out of integrity when you're lying or doing something. Once you come into recovery.

Speaker 1: 15:18

Oh, for sure.

Speaker 2: 15:19

I mean.

Speaker 1: 15:20

I just, and sometimes I catch myself in some things today that are simple. I'm not like a quote unquote, like rule follower by nature. I think you know most of us probably aren't, but that's just not my general way. But you know, there are certain things that now I'm just like you know, like I run my business, and certain things that come up and I'll be like, oh my gosh, I, you know, and even my husband, who's very much a rules follower and like very risk averse as an accountant, like, and he'll be like it's fine, like you don't have to do, and I'm like I can't, I can't, what if someone comes after me, you know the irs or something, I'm like, okay, girl, I think it's a, it's a testimony to the, the change, the psychic change that happens in our thinking when we do this work, when we do the work right. But then, which is what we hear? I got sober in 12 step as well. That's all we had back in the when I got sober, and it worked for me, it works for millions of other people and and it doesn't have to be the only way I always say, you know, we need a layered approach. You know, I think AA and NA are perfect for the beginning, because we all need, you know, sober places to do sober things with sober people, because most of us have none of that in our lives, especially in a country that you know worships alcohol and drugs. We need to have that fellowship. But then, you know, we layer on the therapy and Reiki and acupuncture and whatever else. You know, nutrition, all these things.

Speaker 1: 16:39

So you know you talked about a few things that I think are super important. It's just that kind of highlighting those complexities of life. You know you shared about your daughters at college. I have two daughters in college as well, and one's still here, one's on, and it's very, very taxing. I miss them still all the time. It's been almost three years, you know, and I just don't. It hasn't gotten easier for me, you know. And then you're trying to maintain a marriage and you're trying to you know work and do the things and you're trying to you know, work and do the things, and it does take a real toll. I feel like and that sounds like that's what happened with you like started that stinking thinking for you, huh.

Speaker 2: 17:16

Yeah, yeah, I think I mean for me, I think it was just the mostly the pressure of having to do all of it perfectly right, it wasn't. It was I, these two daughters in college, and I need to be a perfect mother to them and I need to be a perfect daughter. So there was a lot going on with my parents aging and trying to run there and take care of them and not say no to anything. And, you know, give give my phone number to patients so that they could get a hold of me if they needed to know boundary setting and so the prep. It was not like I always say, it was not a livable life, it was an unlivable life. You can't live life saying yes to everything and trying to be perfect. It's just impossible. And it became, and the only way I coped was through substances, right, and that's not a way to live a life.

Speaker 1: 18:12

And as you started to explore, in your recovery work and those letters we just talked about, as you started to get into it, were you able to pinpoint some areas of your life and you can share as much detail as you want or as little where that perfectionism came, came from. Do you know where the I'm not good enough started?

Speaker 2: 18:34

yeah, yeah, I mean, I have loving parents, of course, but, um, with very high expectations. So, um, my dad's a physician as well, and my grandfather was, and my father is, and I adore him. But he and my mother both expected a lot of academic success and I learned pretty early on that that in order to get their approval, I needed to accomplish and do really well. And the more I did well, the more approval I got, the more it fit my ego that, okay, I'm doing what I need to be doing. And the more I did well, the more approval I got, the more it fit my ego that, okay, I'm doing what I need to be doing and this is working and I just need to keep doing it at all expenses, right, and so.

Speaker 2: 19:20

And then I extended that from academics to just like every part of my life instead of only academics. Now, if it works there, maybe it'll also work in relationships. Only academics, now, if it works there, maybe it'll also work in relationships. Okay, now I need to be like the person everyone loves. How do I do that? I do everything they want and then that's, and so that the not good enough, I think came from that place yeah, I see that a lot in my practice as well, with achievement-based love is what I kind of call it.

Speaker 1: 19:52

You know people who and for really no fault of theirs. The parents, you know, sometimes, especially in the older generations, but really anywhere is they don't have the emotional wherewithal, really the emotional intelligence to be able to give. Those older generations didn't have that right. So the only way they knew how to, maybe and it didn't mean they didn't feel love or didn't know deep love for their children or each other, but the expression of it wasn't modeled for them.

Speaker 2: 20:21

It wasn't talked about and it was very uncomfortable.

Speaker 1: 20:23

It was not normalized, and so then it only could come out in ways like oh, you're this great student, or maybe you're this incredible athlete, or you got this great job, or you make all this you know like. And so suddenly now they, they have a built in way of of expressing and showing that love and they think they're doing a good thing, right.

Speaker 2: 20:44

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and it becomes about what you accomplish, not who you are.

Speaker 1: 20:49

And that's a really tough identity to break for people. And even in kids, like when you know, and some of these kids I have one, maybe two, probably just one of them who is very who was like that by herself. She was, she's just already like that and I'm like we didn't really do that, I didn't. I mean I'm not like that and I'm like we didn't really do that. I didn't. I mean I'm not like that. I don't have get straight A's, I never was and we don't really have those kinds of expectations, but she like had that for herself. And so I remember kind of in middle school they were in a very small school like one of the teachers really made it like her mission, I think, to help these kids sever their identity coming from grades, you know, and from that.

Speaker 2: 21:34

And it was.

Speaker 1: 21:35

It was a painful. I think she in purpose gave her a B. Frankly, in one of the classes like because, she needed to have that experience and to be able to break and I was kind of grateful for it because we were able to work with her on it and stuff. But you know it's it's an interesting thing how we are all built. Personality stuff.

Speaker 2: 21:50

But you know it's it's an interesting thing how we are all built personality.

Speaker 1: 21:54

Yeah, absolutely yeah, yeah, so gosh. So then you were, you know, kind of coming up and then you did do the things, you know, you did become a doctor, you did have a great success. You know, outwardly, and on the inside, you know, the thoughts were just really raging. You know, it sounds like you were really running your life where you were measuring everything against something else. You know, comparing out as we say to be true. How was that in your personal life?

Speaker 2: 22:19

in terms of my relationships with my work or school.

Speaker 2: 22:23

Yeah, I always felt like I was less than you know. I was always like, comparing myself to others, oh, that person has more friends than I have. I need more friends. I'm not, you know. So I always felt like and I think part of that came from the fact that I I immigrated to the United States when I was 15 from South Africa, so I was born in South Africa, and coming to a new country in high school is so traumatic and I had an accent and I didn't fit in, and so this feeling of like I'm not good enough, that was reinforced at that time too. Like I don't fit in, there's something wrong with me, there's something different about me um, I'm, you know, and so I was always comparing to others. Like that person has more friends, that person has a better house, that person, you know, like that comparisonitis going on the whole time and that feeling of not being good enough just being reinforced over and over and over again.

Speaker 1: 23:26

Right, and it's it's death by comparison, right, you know, because individuals, you know, the same, even if we're similar, our outsides to someone else's insides or vice versa, is just always going to lead to dysfunction.

Speaker 2: 23:40

I mean, I think there was that inner critical voice that was just beating me up all the time and if anyone looked at my life they would say, oh my gosh, look at her. She's got the husband, the three kids, the house, the job, the doctor, she's got the perfect life right. But internally I was dying. I was like so unhappy and so anxious and so stressed out. But I was able to to like hide that so well Externally, I think we're experts at that, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 24:16

So one of the things that I know is true for myself and then I hear, and and most of the people that I talked to who have long-term recovery, and so I ask a lot is you know, after we get sober for a little while usually about a year or so we get into that kind of one to five year range. I do believe there's this kind of awakening that starts happening and we kind of we begin to wake up to the opportunities and possibilities of life, being this now sober person, things we could have never imagined before. You know, we're kind of still baby, new, sober women. But you know, now suddenly it's like, oh wow, I could, you know, advance my career, or I could start a family, or I could get divorced, or you know, there's all these things that kind of come up and now suddenly they're available to us. I'm not sure if you had that same experience, but if you can relate to that, I'd be curious to hear what that was like for you.

Speaker 2: 25:05

Well, in some ways I do. I do relate to that. I think for me it was more in the spiritual perspective that life changed so much. I think I'd always had a sense that there was something I didn't get about life right, like that I was doing it wrong in some way, or there was something I wasn't quite figuring out. And when I came into recovery I really threw myself into like spiritual practices and spirit, trying to understand life on a greater, from a greater perspective. Like why are we here? What's this all about? We're not you know what. So I actually what really resonated for me?

Speaker 2: 25:48

I learned about like I don't know if you've heard of Tara Brock and like Radical Acceptance and True Refuge and she's written a number of books and she has a wonderful podcast and she's a Buddhist psychotherapist and I found her my first summer of recovery and I listened to every single podcast and I took notes on them and they resonated. It was really about its idea of it's the radical acceptance that you hear of in the 12 step program as well. But it was this concept of like there's just life as it is, there's and there's, being with reality as it shows up and not fighting it and not saying no, it shouldn't be this way, even though it may not be what we want and it may be very uncomfortable, but there is like an acceptance of reality as it is that gives you a tremendous sense of peace. And so, for me, what really started to fundamentally shift in recovery was going from that place of fighting life and manipulating life and controlling life to be the way I wanted to be, to being from a place of true acceptance, just being with reality as it showed up moment to moment, being with reality as it showed up moment to moment, and that fundamentally changed, like how I showed up in the world Right and who, how I felt about myself and the other people.

Speaker 2: 27:11

So I wouldn't say it was for me like a big career change, although there was a huge career change, but that wasn't the big change for me. The change was more the spiritual, like understanding of life, and as I delved into that, I went into more spiritual practices and the understanding of Buddhism and the practices of Buddhism Not that I'm a Buddhist, but just those practices have been so helpful to me and some of the meditations that Tara Brach shares around, like the RAIN meditation, recognizing where we are, allowing the emotions to be there investigating them and then just nurturing whatever we need in the moment. And I practice that over and over and shared it with my clients, and people love that meditation and it's just such a helpful thing that's wonderful.

Speaker 1: 28:04

So I'm curious, I love that you kind of honed in on that spiritual element and obviously that is a part of the 12 step recovery programs and I really do believe that needs to be a part of all of our recoveries, because we do need to come to terms with the fact that it's, you know, the world really doesn't revolve around us and that we don't really have control over really much of anything.

Speaker 1: 28:26

And I think that can only come from understanding that there is something outside of ourselves and what you choose to call that or believe in is, you know, kind of very personal and unique to you. But it is, I think it's necessary, you know, to get to kind of more towards actualization, right, you know, in Maslow's hierarchy and really development into that emotional sobriety realm. But I'm curious how that worked for you in the changing of your thought patterns, cause I really want to kind of get into now, like, okay, what did you do Like? I know you use 12 step. Most people are probably familiar with that. Even if you didn't use them, you probably have some understanding about what that process is like. But for you, like, how did you attack those thoughts like and really change them?

Speaker 2: 29:10

yeah, yeah. So, uh, those inner critical thoughts you're not good enough, you're not doing enough, you should be doing more. I there were a couple of ways that I approached it. I would say, actually, I'm thinking of three different kinds of ways, so, and I'm all about figuring out how to approach things in a very logical, like evidence-based way.

Speaker 2: 29:33

So number one was CBT, right, cognitive behavioral therapy, the idea that everything I think is not true. Thoughts aren't facts. Right, so why am I believing everything that my brain, my mind, is just putting out there? So I started getting a little bit of distance from my thoughts. Oh, maybe that thought isn't true. Do I know it's? I start challenging it. Is that 100% true? How do I know it's 100% true? How do I feel when I believe that thought? And what would be a thought that would be more empowering? So there was that CBT approach. So that was one one bucket that I put it in.

Speaker 2: 30:11

The second bucket was definitely meditation helped, right? So I, in meditation, the whole goal is to just change your relationship with your thoughts. Don't buy into every thought. Just see thoughts as like soundbites. They just pop into our brains, we repeat them. We have like 80,000 thoughts a day and we keep repeating them over and over and over, like 90% of the same thoughts right Over and over and over. They're just soundbites, they're just things that pop into my brain and I just don't. I didn't buy into them as much. In meditation I just noticed oh, there goes a thought, there goes a thought. So there was that.

Speaker 2: 30:47

And then the third thing that I think that was really tremendously beneficial was when I came across the work of Kristen Neff and self-compassion. So she has done a lot of work on self-compassion and I love evidence-based. So she's a and she's a scientist and she has done studies and she's shown that people who score higher on self-compassion have less depression, less anxiety, more resilience, recover from trauma faster. So I was like whoa, this is a study, I need to learn about this. I need, I want to find out more about self-compassion and as I learned about it, I need to learn about this. I want to find out more about self-compassion and as I learned about it, I took the course in self-compassion mindfulness-based self-compassion and I learned the self-compassion break, which is a really easy thing you can do during the day and it's really.

Speaker 2: 31:38

There are three parts to it, right? So the first part is mindfulness noticing you're struggling. Often we are caught in the struggle and we don't even have any separation. So, like whoa, this really is painful. I'm struggling right now. This hurts, whatever it is, whether it's an argument with a friend, whether it's a feeling like you failed at something or you made a mistake this hurts, this is painful.

Speaker 2: 32:08

The second part of the self-compassion break is, instead of criticizing ourselves, become kind to ourselves. So it's self-kindness. So it's like in that moment, what can I do? How can I put a hand on my heart, maybe, and just say I'm here for you, it's okay, I've got you, like something kind.

Speaker 2: 32:22

And then the third part of the self-compassion break is common humanity, which is the idea that I'm not alone in this. Struggling is a part of life. We all make mistakes. It doesn't mean that you know we're like. That is all just a normal part of the human experience making mistakes, having arguments, difficulties, challenges. So my struggle is like this right now and your struggle is like that.

Speaker 2: 32:48

But we all struggle. We're not alone, because often when we're struggling, we become very self absorbed and we start thinking we're in this alone, right. We become very, very secluded and isolated. So it's easy. It's just three things. Oh wow, this hurts. How can I be kind, how can I be kind to myself? And oh, struggling, suffering, it's a part of life and it takes us out of that. So that's the self compassion break, and I started practicing that a lot in my life and as I did that, that voice started getting quieter and the supportive voice started getting louder and became the more dominant voice and really I don't struggle so much I mean really rarely with that inner critical voice. It'll come up sometimes, I'll notice it, of course, and and I just I'm able to kind of relate to it'll come up sometimes, I'll notice it, of course, and I just I'm able to kind of relate to it in a different way.

Speaker 1: 33:42

I love that so much that self-compassion break is such a great tangible tool, right, so that's something that we can really hang on to Like. You could put that in your kind of notes file in your phone. You could set little timers to say self compassion break and kind of have your little kind of instructions.

Speaker 1: 34:01

Sometimes in the beginning, when we're trying something new, we really do need, you know, instructions. You know, or protocol, how do I do we can get tripped up on the like, well, I don't know how to even meditation, you know, I don't know how to do that. Or you know prayer, how do I do that? How do I talk to, you know, god, or whatever, like you know. Okay, so just write down a few steps and yeah, I kind of liken it almost to to like an inventory. I I talk a lot about like a thought inventory, you know, kind of, and and I like how you also talked about, uh, the noticing which I guess is mindset, uh, mindfulness. You know, interchangeably. I always say you know like noticing, like you're like what is going on right now, like what is what is happening like right now, especially if you're in like a situation where you uh, maybe you just lashed out at somebody or you feel you're feeling that kind of stick to your stomach or nervous or anxiety coming up. You know like you're getting the physical symptoms.

Speaker 1: 34:49

Our bodies are such great indicators and they're usually first before when we are doing this work, when we're under developed emotionally, the body is first, and so, as we are learning, you can use your body as a tool to help you understand. Like there is a something, there's something happening, and then it's up to us to use our you know, our frontal lobes, our cognitive brains, to say what is going on. Like, what am I afraid of what? If the situation right now is bothering me? You know, asking yourself really good questions, I think, is part of self-compassion, and then you have to drill down.

Speaker 1: 35:21

This is self-awareness, I think, self-awareness which most people are not truly very self-aware I think it's 70, I think Trisha Urich does the. She's the big researcher on self-awareness and she said, like 70% of people are not self-aware, which I get. That and people don't like this. We don't like to do this. Because when you're like, well, what am I afraid of? Oh, I'm not afraid of anything.

Speaker 1: 35:41

He just came at me, blah, blah, blah, and you're like, oh, no, no, really ask yourself well, what am I afraid of? Well, I don't like, I'm afraid that I'll get upset. Well, and you're like, oh, okay, well, there's your core issue right now. You believe that you're weak, you know, or maybe your security is being threatened you won't be loved. I mean so you can get to those like core negative thoughts while you're working through this stuff by asking super great questions from using your body in that self compassion break. I mean, that's why we, that's why these influencers on on Instagram and people like us are talking about these things. It's not just because we want clicks and likes and whatever. It's real stuff, like you mentioned. It's like real science.

Speaker 1: 36:22

It's not just pleasantry, you know, it's like a real thing. And then the meditation piece, I think, is really powerful too, and sometimes people get tripped up, including myself, people who are, you know, have adult ADHD. I mean, I'm just more of a busy person, busy body and mind, and so it's sometimes hard. I remember when I was I wasn't early, early, but I was newer, probably in that first 10 years even I used to do acupuncture kind of regularly. I started to layer on a lot of complimentary kind of medicine modalities. After I did a lot of good step work and she told me I should take yoga and I was like I can't take yoga Because I can't, I can't stay in the room, I can't sit in the room for that long. I couldn't stand it, I couldn't. There's no clock in there, I couldn't sit in there for 60 minutes, and so which is the most bizarre thing ever Sometimes when I hear myself say that, but that's where I was, I just couldn't do it.

Speaker 1: 37:20

And so she's like that's why you need to take the yoga, and I'm like I don't want to do it and so I had. I did start doing it and it was extremely helpful. It was very uncomfortable and challenging but, boy, after I did practice that for weeks, months, years this is not something that happened quickly for me I was able to start to utilize that as a very meditative experience and it became much more of a spiritual slash meditative experience for me than it was a physical experience. The physical stuff for me was like a bonus. Like I was like, oh cool, I'm getting a little bit of a workout too, but mostly I went there for a spiritual connection and just to be able to learn how to be present a spiritual connection and just to be able to learn how to be present.

Speaker 2: 37:56

Yeah, I relate so much to that. I mean I I could not sit still and I could not be with myself. Before I came into recovery I was. I think I was running away from myself all the time and it is astonishing to me that now I'm able, I enjoy my own company. I like being alone and being quiet and being with myself and I really do attribute a lot of that to these practices.

Speaker 2: 38:24

Right, and the meditation for me, oh my gosh, sitting still in meditation with my mind racing and thoughts coming and going, and my meditation teacher would just say it doesn't matter how many thoughts you have, it's all about the practice of just how you relate to the thoughts. So it's sitting with. Sitting in meditation is about just being curious and compassionate to whatever shows up. And that was like oh, okay, all I need to do is sit here and be kind to my mind as it races from thought to thought sometimes unpleasant thoughts, sometimes pleasant thoughts and just bring it back to the breath. It's not about blissing out or getting rid of thoughts or clearing my mind of all thoughts. That's not what I do in meditation. That's some types of meditation, but that's not mindfulness meditation. So when I learned that I was like, okay, I don't need to get rid of thoughts, then I'm doing fine, like this is okay, I just need to sit here and be kind and curious about whatever shows up.

Speaker 1: 39:30

That's such an important distinction, because what we just said, right, because we're all different, we're all different personalities, and so being able to find a good match, versus eliminating an entire modality because you're like, well, I can't do that. Instead of saying, well, maybe there's another type, maybe there's a type of meditation, I want to put you on the spot here for a second and, if you're willing, I'm just curious if you could just maybe do like a, like a one minute kind of act out. What does that look like? Like when you're sitting there and that's happening, like just pretend, like for like one minute, really, you're just in the meditation experience. I would like to hear, can you set it up for us, like where are you, what's happening, what time of day, um, how long is it? And then, when the thought starts coming in, what are you doing? I just want to see if I got this.

Speaker 2: 40:14

So usually I meditate. I meditate every day. I meditate for about 15 to 20 minutes, so not a huge amount of time. The times are different and I usually do it just sitting in my office and because I have a beautiful view, but I do close my eyes. I look outside and then I close my eyes and I just, I usually just feel my feet on the ground and feel a connection of my feet with the earth and feel how the earth is supporting me in the moment.

Speaker 2: 40:42

And then I bring my attention up my body and eventually to my breath and I just kind of notice the waves of the breath.

Speaker 2: 40:52

And as I'm noticing the waves of the breath, my mind might go of the breath. And as I'm noticing the waves of the breath, my mind might go, oh, I need to, like, cook dinner later or I need to call so and so, and I just, sometimes I'll just go label it like, oh, thinking, and then come back to the breath. Sometimes it will be like, oh, I wonder if my son is going to get sick because he was at that party last night, and I'll be like, oh, worrying. And then I just bring it back to the breath and then I'll breathe a few more times and then something else might pop into my mind and I might get caught up in it for a while. I go in the whole story, you know, remembering an event that occurred, and then I'll just be like, oh, it's like waking up, you know, I wake up to it and I'm like, oh, caught in thinking, and just come back to the breath and that's how I meditate. Wow.

Speaker 1: 41:43

Thank you so much. That was helpful Because I was even listening to you talk about how you can show self compassion to yourself and that, and I was. I understand the concept in the words, but I was. I was struggling a tiny bit to just kind of figure out like, oh, what does this actually look like? And that makes total sense. And when you said be kind to your mind, I really liked that because it rhymes and it's easy to remember. It's so true and and those are the kinds of phrases or or you know, instagram plaques right that we'll see, we would see back in our day, or new people kind of see, and they'll be like that's so stupid, like I'm not going to do that, like who does that, whatever. And then, but once you start to learn and see how you are being so kind of mean to yourself, you know you're just being like a mean friend, you know a mean, mean girl to yourself. It's easier than to be like, oh, wow, okay. Well, the reverse of that is to start to show compassion to yourself, start to have kindness, and I think there's a lot of acceptance work that comes with this too.

Speaker 1: 42:46

One of the things that I think I was, I was thinking about when you were sharing something along the way was you know when things go on? I used to. I have a very similar thought pattern to you and it was pretty ingrained and really, really tough to like undo. And also I live with other people and around other people who were sort of supportive of that, and so it was hard to kind of undo that, especially when there's criticism coming at you and like there's other things and so, as you're learning and growing and becoming more aware of things and like healing yourself, those things are still happening around you, right, and you might get that sort of criticism or, you know, make mistakes or whatever. And so I had to really learn how to adjust my language, and I guess maybe that's CBT work too is just sort of like when somebody wants to say, like I can't believe you forgot that you know picture day form or whatever.

Speaker 1: 43:35

Blah, blah, blah. And I'm like you know I was able to start to learn. Took me a very long time to say, yeah, I did forget that picture day form and that really stinks. But you know, I did like a thousand things really well today you know, I just did that one thing wrong so instead of ruminating on the mistake and like making that the highlight of the whole day or the whole, my whole life.

Speaker 1: 43:56

I could, I was able to just put it in its place, you know instead. I was able to start to say you know, I got three kids dressed and ready, we were on time for school, I fed them, we were, we were, we had a good time when we did this and we did this. And you know, I, I, you know. And then, yes, there was this mistake, but that doesn't have to, that doesn't discount all the other things that went really well.

Speaker 2: 44:16

Yeah, I mean, we have such a negative at worst. Our brains just have a negativity bias, right, so we remember all the mistakes.

Speaker 1: 44:24

So it's hard work to rewire all of that? Yeah, but it is possible and that's one of the beautiful about neuroscience right now, and I love the last 10 years or so with the brain research. I'm an EMDR therapist, so it is EMDR is a modality that I use every single day. I also have a remote neurofeedback program which is hardwires the brain using operant conditioning, which literally does. Both of those modalities are healing the brain in two different ways but very similar and rewriting our stories and rewriting our thinking patterns for good, right Like they're not. It doesn't go back, it's not for a temporary fix, it's. These are real, lasting modalities that people can access and I would encourage you to do that. If you're not, if you haven't done so, I would love for you to tell us a little bit more about where we can find you If somebody wants to reach out and learn a little bit more about what you're you're're doing, what kind of services you provide and where you like to hang out yeah, so you can find me on my.

Speaker 2: 45:19

You can look me up on my website, which is resilience recovery coachingcom. Um. I have an instagram page as well under the same name resilience recovery coaching and facebook page, um, and I coach really people from all over the country. So I do zoom coaching, coaching, and I have an office in Chicago, in Illinois, in my home, and I just really love coaching. You know anybody, women or men, who are interested in letting go of self sabotaging habits and and live according to their values, and so, for me, self-sabotaging habits are not just over drinking, it's also perfectionism is a habit, and procrastination and that inner critical voice buying into it is also a habit. So I love working with all of those.

Speaker 1: 46:07

Oh, that's amazing. I'll make sure I link to that in the show notes below so people can find you easily, and I just thank you so much for your time, vanessa. It's been great getting to know you a little bit better and to talk all the things about recovery and thinking patterns. I know everyone's going to get a lot out of this, so thank you so much for your time.

Speaker 2: 46:21

You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: 46:27

Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of Confident Sober Women. If you enjoyed this conversation, hit the subscribe button above so you won't miss any upcoming episodes. And, hey, if you really loved it, leave me a review. You can learn more about the Sober Freedom Inner Circle membership at wwwshelbyjohncoachingcom. Forward slash inner circle. See you next time.